Overlooked/Ignored/Neglected

[marcello]

George Russell is someone whom I'd really like to read a good bio of. I have the Decca vinyl but would jump at a Select.

What about this one:

George Russell book

[JSngry]

e.g. "This thread is going down the toilet."

Don't you mean "This thread have done gone down the shitter"?

[Dave James]

Winston Churchill is known for saying, "That is something up with which I will not put." Being a proper grammarian, he was careful not to end a sentence with a preposition.

[Larry Kart]

Winston Churchill is known for saying, "That is something up with which I will not put." Being a proper grammarian, he was careful not to end a sentence with a preposition.

H.W. Fowler's "A Dictionary of Modern English Usage" demolishes what he describes as the "cherished superstition that prepositions must be placed before the word they govern.... The fact is that the remarkable freedom enjoyed by English in putting its prepositions late is an important element in the flexibility of language. The power of saying ... 'People worth talking to' instead of 'People with whom it is worthwhile to talk' is not one to be lightly surrendered.... 'That depends on what they are cut with' is not improved by conversion into 'That depends on with what they are cut.'... Those who lay down the universal principle that final prepositions are 'inelegant' are unconsciously trying to deprive the English language of a valuable idiomatic resource, which has been used freely by all our greatest writers except those whose instinct for English idiom has been overpowered by notions of correctness derived from Latin standards."

[Dave Garrett]

From the alt.usage.english FAQ:

"Excuse me, where is the library at?"

"Here at Hahvahd, we never end a sentence with a preposition."

"O.K. Excuse me, where is the library at, *asshole*?"

Fowler and nearly every other respected prescriptivist see

NOTHING wrong with ending a clause with a preposition; Fowler

calls it a "superstition". ("Never end a sentence with a

preposition" is how the superstition is usually stated, although it

would "naturally" extend to any placement of a preposition later

than the noun or pronoun it governs.) Indeed, Fowler considers "a

good land to live in" grammatically superior to "a good land in

which to live", since one cannot say *"a good land which to

inhabit".

[Dave James]

No doubt, my prepositional predilection is the result of a strict Jesuit education. While I don't remember having my knuckles rapped with a ruler to drive home the point, I'm not saying it didn't happen either. Nonetheless, I will do whatever is necessary, up to and including abandoning a thought altogether, to avoid ending a sentence with a proposition. New Age grammarians be damned.

[PHILLYQ]

Overlooked/Ignored/Neglected Grammar!

No doubt, my prepositional predilection is the result of a strict Jesuit education. While I don't remember having my knuckles rapped with a ruler to drive home the point, I'm not saying it didn't happen either. Nonetheless, I will do whatever is necessary, up to and including abandoning a thought altogether, to avoid ending a sentence with a proposition. New Age grammarians be damned.

I went to a Jesuit high school, and what I was taught there led me to give up Catholicism!!

[JETman]

Not proper English:

whom I'd really like to read a good bio of.

Proper English:

someone about whom I'd like to read a good bio

Participles (in this case: "of") should not be placed at the end of sentences. Having been married to a writer myself, I know that being a good one does not equate to someone who can necessarily handle grammar and syntax well. Very surprising --- these functions must be handled in different parts of the brain.

As a writer and proofreader, I have no problem with the original. Clearly you're a prescriptive grammarian. Grammar is a guideline, and usage evolves. "Rules" like particples should not be placed at the end of sentences are pretty much anal retentive clinging to useless prescriptions that go against common usage and understanding. The original sentence is perfectly "proper English."

Generation gap maybe? I DO have a problem with the original, and since my opinion matters more to me than yours, I will disagree. Grammar is NOT just a guideline. If I'm correctly interpreting what you are saying, ebonics and other types of slang (like texting language, perhaps) are perfectly acceptable because they happen to in vogue in our society. Therein lies the problem.

If you cannot communicate properly through the use of any language of your choosing, you're lost. You will not be heard.

I have the right to point out the shortcomings of those who get paid for said shortcomings despite, well,....falling short. It's all part of a general hypocrisy which leads, in the bigger picture, to all that is wrong with our "civilized" society. I call it the "settling for less" syndrome.

I may be anal retentive when it comes to grammar, but I was taught well. I DO hope that you've noticed my anal retentive attention to placement of punctuation, by the way. I'm not changing at this stage of the game. If you bother to attend school, you might as well take something away from the experience I say. As a matter of fact, I teach my children that the most important things they'll learn in school are the ability to communicate and the ability to master simple mathematics. You'd be surprised at how many master neither.

Your ability to write poetry does not make you more of an expert at grammar than anyone else.

The original sentence is so awkward that it could not be conceived as proper English in any sense. I cringed when I read it aloud.

[JETman]

Winston Churchill is known for saying, "That is something up with which I will not put." Being a proper grammarian, he was careful not to end a sentence with a preposition.

H.W. Fowler's "A Dictionary of Modern English Usage" demolishes what he describes as the "cherished superstition that prepositions must be placed before the word they govern.... The fact is that the remarkable freedom enjoyed by English in putting its prepositions late is an important element in the flexibility of language. The power of saying ... 'People worth talking to' instead of 'People with whom it is worthwhile to talk' is not one to be lightly surrendered.... 'That depends on what they are cut with' is not improved by conversion into 'That depends on with what they are cut.'... Those who lay down the universal principle that final prepositions are 'inelegant' are unconsciously trying to deprive the English language of a valuable idiomatic resource, which has been used freely by all our greatest writers except those whose instinct for English idiom has been overpowered by notions of correctness derived from Latin standards."

Not to beat a dead horse, but "People worth talking to" is nowhere near as awkward sounding as what Cliff wrote (or should I say that which Cliff wrote --- anyway, you know where I'm at). Language may be flexible, but it still needs to flow. PERIOD. QED. ETC.

There is more flexibility allowed in poetry writing, btw, (ask Sylvia Plath or Allen Ginsburg) than in "everyday" practical language.

God, you guys just don't let anything die around here. It's a case of gang mentality. However, I think that most of you are flexing beer muscles.

Overlooked/Ignored/Neglected Grammar!

No doubt, my prepositional predilection is the result of a strict Jesuit education. While I don't remember having my knuckles rapped with a ruler to drive home the point, I'm not saying it didn't happen either. Nonetheless, I will do whatever is necessary, up to and including abandoning a thought altogether, to avoid ending a sentence with a proposition. New Age grammarians be damned.

I went to a Jesuit high school, and what I was taught there led me to give up Catholicism!!

My condolences.

I went to the best public high school in New York. That's part of why I be where I be where language is concerned.

[Larry Kart]

No doubt, my prepositional predilection is the result of a strict Jesuit education. While I don't remember having my knuckles rapped with a ruler to drive home the point, I'm not saying it didn't happen either. Nonetheless, I will do whatever is necessary, up to and including abandoning a thought altogether, to avoid ending a sentence with a proposition. New Age grammarians be damned.

New Age grammarians? Fowler's "A Dictionary of Modern English Usage" was published in 1926! And his list of "great authors who have allowed themselves to end a sentence or a clause with a preposItion" includes Chaucer, Spenser, Shakespeasre, the translator of the King James Bible, Ben Jonson, Milton, Swift, etc.

And Jetman -- when it comes to prepositions at the end of sentences, you were not taught well enough. This is the sound advice of Fowler (a stickler for proper usage if there ever was one): "Follow no arbitrary rule [about placing prepositions at the end of the sentence] but remember that there are often two or more possible arrangements between which a choice should be consciously made. [My emphasis] If the final preposition that has naturally presented itself sounds comfortable, keep it; if it does not sound comfortable, still keep it if it has compensating vigor or when among awkward possibilities is it is the least awkward."

BTW, in Fowler's entry "preposition at the end," he explains quite clearly how the "cherished superstition" about not putting prepositions at the end arose: because "you cannot put a preposition (roughly speaking) later than its word in Latin" it was thought that "therefore you cannot do so in English." But Latin and English are not the same language.

P.S. This "gang" formed because you got snotty with a poster about violating a "rule" of proper usage that is in fact a canard.

[BillF]

Hate to get back on topic, really I do, but...overlooked...Maynard Ferguson's Color Him Wild (later reissued as Dues).

Ok, the format was past the pint of no return as far as "relevancy" goes, and even when it was relevant, Maynard's band was always more a "showcase" than it was a "vital creative force" relative to the overall jazz scene at any given time.

Now, having said that, this is a very, very good album. The arrangements are all fresh (again, relative to the world they inhabit), the soloists, all fine, and the rhythm section (Mike Abene, Ron Mcclure, & Tony Inzalaco) plays for keeps. And in Willie Maiden's "Tinsel" & Rob McConnell's (for whom on I usually have no use) "Come Rain Or Come Shine", there's two of the best "traditional" big band charts of the 1960s, period. And that's in pretty good company to be, truthfully.

Maynard was at the begin of a career/personal decline during this time, and I don't know how much attention this one got in its time. But it does seem to be mostly overlooked today, and it's too fine a work to so be.

Apologies to the grammarians for moving off topic, but I have Dues and consider it a fine album. It's certainly a good choice for this Overlooked/Neglected thread and others have thought so too, as I was first alerted to it by Marc Myers who featured it as a "Hidden Gem" on JazzWax in 2008:

http://www.jazzwax.com/2008/06/5-hidden-gems-a.html

Edited May 23, 2012 by BillF

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Hate to get back on topic, really I do, but...overlooked...Maynard Ferguson's Color Him Wild (later reissued as Dues).

Ok, the format was past the pint of no return as far as "relevancy" goes, and even when it was relevant, Maynard's band was always more a "showcase" than it was a "vital creative force" relative to the overall jazz scene at any given time.

Now, having said that, this is a very, very good album. The arrangements are all fresh (again, relative to the world they inhabit), the soloists, all fine, and the rhythm section (Mike Abene, Ron Mcclure, & Tony Inzalaco) plays for keeps. And in Willie Maiden's "Tinsel" & Rob McConnell's (for whom on I usually have no use) "Come Rain Or Come Shine", there's two of the best "traditional" big band charts of the 1960s, period. And that's in pretty good company to be, truthfully.

Maynard was at the begin of a career/personal decline during this time, and I don't know how much attention this one got in its time. But it does seem to be mostly overlooked today, and it's too fine a work to so be.

Apologies to the grammarians for moving off topic, but I have Dues and consider it a fine album. It's certainly a good choice for this Overlooked/Neglected thread and others have thought so too, as I was first alerted to it by Marc Myers who featured it as a "hidden Gem" on JazzWax in 2008:

http://www.jazzwax.com/2008/06/5-hidden-gems-a.html

As I recollect, the album was pretty well thought of in Britain at the time. Whether that means anything, I know not.

MG

[David Ayers]

Winston Churchill is known for saying, "That is something up with which I will not put." Being a proper grammarian, he was careful not to end a sentence with a preposition.

In this probably invented anecdote, Churchill was making a point against the grammar fanatics...

[colinmce]

According to Keepnews in the Complete Interplay Sessions notes, the tapes were there all along, just mislabeled and misfiled. He found them during a reorganization of the Fantasy vault.

Found very few mentions of this album in the forum. An oddity in the Evans canon, but one that is well worth a listen. Seven Evans originals, no standards, with Zoot Sims & Jim Hall upfront, Ron Carter & Philly Joe Jones providing a thick, springin' bottom. At turns intricate ("Loose Bloose", an excellent, sort of mellow Tristano tune), lyrical ("Time Remembered", "There Came You"), tough, ragged ("Funkallero"), contrapuntal ("Fudgesickle Built For Four")! Each track is interesting, original in one way or another.

You're right! A true Overlooked/Ignored/Neglected candidate. All I have from the session is "Loose Bloos" on this 1970s twofer:

P.S. Obviously things have moved on since Orrin Keepnews wrote of the "Loose Bloos" track on the 1970s twofer:

"This, I'm afraid, is from a truly lost session .... things just didn't go too smoothly at this ... date, and it was put on the shelf. Later, Bill and engineer Ray Fowler began to do editing work; they put this selection into shape that Evans approved and got started on a second without stopping. They never did resume the project, and now I find that the rest of the tapes have totally vanished - leaving only "Loose Bloos" and a frustrating partial item that ends abruptly in the middle of a piano solo. My gut reaction was to get this one salvaged tune out into the world quickly, before it also disappeared."

Hope I'm not getting off topic, but does anyone know how the Loose Blues album came about in view of Keepnews' comments here?

[king ubu]

Gee, I must be sh*tting bull!

[Pete C]

If I'm correctly interpreting what you are saying, ebonics and other types of slang (like texting language, perhaps) are perfectly acceptable because they happen to in vogue in our society.

You are not correctly interpreting what I said.

Also, your use of the word "ebonics" at this date seems somewhat telling to me... So maybe it is a generation gap. I'm just a young pup of 56.

And by the way, Black English or African American Vernacular English is not "a type of slang" as your sentence implies you believe.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Pete C

[JSngry]

Dangling a participle is one thing, but surrendering a prerogative is quite the another.

[Larry Kart]

that !

In the (maybe) overlooked dept.:

A unique piano trio: Martial Solal accompanied by two bass players - Jean-François Jenny Clark & Gilbert Rovère. Makes for bewitching, hard to describe music: whirling, suspenseful, humorous, cinematic. The trio had been playing and experimenting for 2 years when this was recorded (1970) and it shows. Exceptionally well recorded, too.

A gem.

[A Lark Ascending]

It's very hot here again. Looking to stay so for the next week at least.

[Dave James]

It's very hot here again. Looking to stay so for the next week at least.

I think Bev is trying to disrupt the intent for which this thread was designed, prepositionally speaking.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Dave James

[papsrus]

It's very hot here again. Looking to stay so for the next week at least.

I think Bev is trying to disrupt the intent for which this thread was designed, prepositionally speaking.

The heat has him confused, thinking he was in the weather thread?

It's kind of hot here, too. But I'm used to stumbling around in a confused state.

[A Lark Ascending]

Discussions of weather are overlooked/ignored/neglected by Brits.

[Pete C]

Discussions of weather are overlooked/ignored/neglected by Brits.

Not always.

http://www.kindakinks.net/discography/showsong.php?song=390

[A Lark Ascending]

Discussions of weather are overlooked/ignored/neglected by Brits.

Not always.

http://www.kindakinks.net/discography/showsong.php?song=390

Shows how out of touch Ray Davies was with the British character. Most Brits prefer to talk about Postmodernism or the immortality of the soul rather than the weather. The French admire us for it. What was it Napoleon once called us? 'A nation of philosophers'.

[skeith]

Discussions of weather are overlooked/ignored/neglected by Brits.

Not always.

http://www.kindakinks.net/discography/showsong.php?song=390

Shows how out of touch Ray Davies was with the British character. Most Brits prefer to talk about Postmodernism or the immortality of the soul rather than the weather. The French admire us for it. What was it Napoleon once called us? 'A nation of philosophers'.

I thought he called you guys " A nation of shopkeepers" ... but perhaps you jest?