Steve Kuhn - Wisteria

[jeffcrom]

I just want to know if there's a cover of "Wot a Man Pay a Fess" on this disc.

[Trumpet Guy]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Listen to more of this record! Quite a few cuts swing--ECM prejudices aside-Listen!

[Steve Reynolds]

I have mixed feeling about the ECM label.

A label that has preoduced to my ears some of the great recordings I own - from Conference of the Birds (Dave Holland with Rivers, Braxton and Altschul) to "Not Two, Not One" by Paul Bley with Peacock and Motian.

HOWEVER as a listener who loves 'out' music, music that quote, un-quote 'swings' and much of all everything in between....

back in 1999 or so I saw the Dave Holland Quintet (after it was recently assembled in that configuration) and the band was Chris Potter, Steve Nelson, Robin Eubanks and Billy Drummond and the band absolutely KICKED ass and they payed the music from a recent or upcing CD - so I bought the CD - and I listened to the CD - and the fire and grit and energy was SUCKED right out of the band care of ECM.

as is often the case - recently I have been listening to a liking the recent Michael Formanek CD The Rub and the Spare Change with Tim Berne, Craig Taborn and Gerald Cleaver and I then saw the band live - the band wasn't great live but very good - and as is usually the case Cleaver (the drummer) sounded better than on record and the band had a much more energy and drive than is shown on the recording - and they played a couple of the tracks from the recording so it isn't the music.

some I am having pause before I buy the Snakeoil CD - as I am pretty damn sure it will NOT have the energy level that the band would have live....

ECM even did it to the Joe Maneri Quartet CD -'In Full Cry' - please compare to the hatART or hatology recording of that incredible quartet.

be honest

you got ears, you gotta listen - Don Van Vliet

[JETman]

It's no secret that jazz live >> jazz studio in most cases!

[Steve Reynolds]

but not always - I heard the Joe Maneri Quartet live with Mat Maneri, Cecil McBee and Randy Peterson - from 10 feet away @ Tonic in ~ 1999

I have 'Dahabenzapple' on hatART with the above quartet - that recording - mastered by the *great* Peter Pfister captures the band in all of it's intensity and glory

Try 'At the Vortex' on enanem by Parker-Guy-Lytton - comparable or EXCEEDING the power of a great performance by Evan Parker with Mark Dresser and Gerry Hemingway which I witnessed from the first row @ The Stone which is as impactful as any show could be.

compare Michael Formanek's classic 'Low Profile' on enja records from the early 90's and compare the energy level on that recording with the afoementioned recent ECM recording.

Ot isn't necessarily the approach that the band might have, it is the approach to the recording, the matering, the echo/reverb and the rest which sometimes lessens the impact of the recordings

how that great Paul Bley trio recording sounds to me is how many of the recordings on ECM should sound - for some reason on that recordign, the piano is more crisp and Motian is recorded to sound great whereas the recent Motian trio CD with Potter and Moran sounds NOTHING like that band must have sounded at the Vanguard - and that is where the CD was recorded.

[JETman]

Musicians age, mature, etc. Circumstances change. We do not live in a vacuum where everything is equal regardless of the time, place, etc. That being said, you're certainly entitled to believe what you wanna believe. Thank god most folks do not share your opinion --- ECM surely would not have lasted 43 years if they did.

[Steve Reynolds]

thanks for your civil response, JETman

this is not a new subject/discussion on line - back in the early days when I and others saw those bands, specifically the Holland band back in 1999 - there were a number of very learned experienced observers/listeners who attended the show @ the Knitting Factory and the CD that came out a while later was called "Prime Directive" which in retrospect is a nice CD by a GREAT band - and what follwed were more nice CD's by a GREAT band.

I have no idea if you can find the discussion as it was on an older version of another current jazz BBS - but EVERYONE who saw that band live was extremely dissapointed in the CD - and it wasn't that Potter and Drummond didn't play well - but the ECM aesthetic somehow often does not capture the energy of some of these great bands.

there are many labels that while they may not be as long lasting as ECM - that have a grand history of releasing music by bands/musicians that captures those bands/musicians as they sound/close to how they sound/with the energy/vibe that they have in person.

as you may have noted from my comments here and above, I am relating personal experiences with concrete examples - and ANYONE who may have heard bands that have recorded on ECM as compared to recordings for example on hatART will note the difference.

I do realize that Manfred would not be interested in a two-track vivid live recording like 'At The Vortex' or 'The Two Seasons' (Evan Parker with John Edwards and Mark Sanders) - also on emanem - but imagine if the band that recorded "The Dark Tree" (the seminal all-time classic Horace Tapscott 2 CD set with John Carter, Cecil McBee and Andrew Cyrille) recorded for ECM - I say they take the edge and the fire out of Cyrille's kit, and maybe even the crunch out of Tapscott piano and John Carter's legendary clarinet sound.

maybe I am wrong - but I would like to hear a newer ECM that doesn't make any band sound more subdued just for one time.....

in any event there are many labels that do bands justice and the idea that ECM is the most or second greatest jazz label along with blue note is like saying Herbie Hancock is a better pianist than Horace Tapscott or Mal Waldron or Paul Bley or Cooper-Moore just because the number say so.

Standing on a Whale Fishing for Minnows

[7/4]

I bought a copy yesterday. It's a hip swinging album, recorded in New York. If it was on the radio, I don't think I'd know it was an ECM release.

[David Ayers]

It seems we can never discuss an album on this label without discussing the label.

[mjazzg]

Yes, a shame isn't it and somewhat tiresome that recent threads about Berne's Snakeoil and the Parker/Mitchell ECM releases have all ended up as debates (?) about the nature of the label.

Maybe it's time for a "ECM the label - your thoughts" thread?

but then this post is guilty as charged....

I'm interested to hear more of folks' impressions of the Kuhn as it's not a release I'd necessarily gravitate towards

[Tom 1960]

It's a shame that this thread has become something of a debate on the merits of the label, ECM and less so on whether the Kuhn date is a worthy one of purchase which is why I initiated this thread. I own a few of Kuhn's other releases on various labels and get great enjoyment from hearing them. Personally I don't give a shit who is releasing this album, just whether it's a good one or bad one. That's all I care about.

[CraigP]

I love Kuhn's Trance album from the 70's, but I saw him live in the 80's playing standards and he put me to sleep. I'm curious about Wisteria, is it mostly ballads, or is there energy to some of the cuts as well?

Edited May 15, 2012 by CraigP

[JETman]

I love Kuhn's Trance album from the 70's, but I saw him live in the 80's playing standards and he put me to sleep. I'm curious about Wisteria, is it mostly ballads, or is there energy to some of the cuts as well?

I haven't heard it yet, but I'm sure that if there's no energy, it's all the fault of Herr Eicher and his dastardly plan to suck the moisture out of the sound.

[CraigP]

I love Kuhn's Trance album from the 70's, but I saw him live in the 80's playing standards and he put me to sleep. I'm curious about Wisteria, is it mostly ballads, or is there energy to some of the cuts as well?

I haven't heard it yet, but I'm sure that if there's no energy, it's all the fault of Herr Eicher and his dastardly plan to suck the moisture out of the sound.

Now, now, let's all try to move on here. There's a whole new thread for ECM conspiracy theories...

[Tom Storer]

David Finck is announced for the Paris concert (next to Kuhn and Baron).

?? The club's site lists Swallow, not Finck. Maybe you googled and got a page from last year?

Anyway, I got the CD, but I'm traveling and don't have time to listen to it. Will report later.

[king ubu]

Not sure what I found three weeks ago, but it says Swallow and Drummond indeed!

[GA Russell]

I forgot to say that two weeks ago I heard the title track Wisteria on Sirius about 10:15 am. It's not often you hear an ECM on Sirius, but this didn't seem out of place.

[Tom 1960]

FWIW, I now own "Wisteria" and it's a good one especially if you're a fan of Kuhn.

[sonnymax]

Thinking about purchasing this......I don't want anymore piano trio recordings that are inundated with too many bass solos......need to know if Wisteria has too many bass solos meaning one every cut.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and personal preferences, of course, but I feel statements like this reflect an ignorance and intolerance that is antithetical to appreciating creative improvised music.

[king ubu]

Well, that they usually don't consist of anything but piano, bass and drums kinda makes them predictable, too. Also they most always start out with the piano playing the theme and the first solo - very predictable, kinda.

[Steve Reynolds]

Crispell-Guy-Lytton

Then maybe you will really complain about the bass solos!!