Steve Kuhn - Wisteria

[Tom 1960]

Any thoughts on Steve's latest?

[GA Russell]

Highly recommended for the many who like Now He Sings, Now He Sobs.

It's a relaxing piano trio album. It's my favorite ECM in a very long time.

[LWayne]

Agreed. My favorite CD of the year so far.

LWayne

[jlhoots]

Got it.

Nice CD.

[Tom Storer]

Well, that explains why that trio will be touring Europe this summer... I plan to see them in late July. And now that I'm aware of the CD, I'll pick that up right quick.

[king ubu]

Surely would love to see them live!

David Finck is announced for the Paris concert (next to Kuhn and Baron).

Are there any further dates planned?

Big Kuhn fan, but never had a chance to catch him live yet.

[Peter Friedman]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

[JETman]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Music does NOT have to swing to be good. Do you really think that Eicher is telling Kuhn, a musician for over 50 years, to cut an album that is ethereal, and not what Kuhn intended? As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that the Venuses that you so love are the ones where the artists are being told what to play.

Avant doesn't swing. Energy music doesn't swing. Hell, most Nessas don't swing. And yet, a lot of you guys are ALL OVER those.

More misplaced ECM bias.

Edited May 10, 2012 by JETman

[Sundog]

[John Tapscott]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Music does NOT have to swing to be good. Do you really think that Eicher is telling Kuhn, a musician for over 50 years, to cut an album that is ethereal, and not what Kuhn intended? As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that the Venuses that you so love are the ones where the artists are being told what to play.

Avant doesn't swing. Energy music doesn't swing. Hell, most Nessas don't swing. And yet, a lot of you guys are ALL OVER those.

More misplaced ECM bias.

No one would have to be told anything. But I don't care who you are. If you walk into the ECM studio, you know what's expected in general terms and you deliver. You record for Venus or Reservoir, well sure, you'd make a somewhat different kind of album, no doubt about it. Good thing Steve records for both types of labels. If the ECM style is to your liking, listen to that. If it's the other labels, listen to those.

[JETman]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Music does NOT have to swing to be good. Do you really think that Eicher is telling Kuhn, a musician for over 50 years, to cut an album that is ethereal, and not what Kuhn intended? As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that the Venuses that you so love are the ones where the artists are being told what to play.

Avant doesn't swing. Energy music doesn't swing. Hell, most Nessas don't swing. And yet, a lot of you guys are ALL OVER those.

More misplaced ECM bias.

No one would have to be told anything. But I don't care who you are. If you walk into the ECM studio, you know what's expected in general terms and you deliver. You record for Venus or Reservoir, well sure, you'd make a somewhat different kind of album, no doubt about it. Good thing Steve records for both types of labels. If the ECM style is to your liking, listen to that. If it's the other labels, listen to those.

You're wrong. Improvised music, by definition, is not planned. I had this very conversation with John Abercrombie this past winter. To put it lightly, he was amused by people's general perceptions of Eicher and the label.

I listen to all labels' records with an open ear absent of preconceived notions. If you haven't noticed, people LOVE to bash ECM. The reasons do not matter. To me, it may be the most successful music label, artistically speaking, that ever was.

If you don't like the album, that's fine by me. Just don't blame it on the label. FWIW, I haven't heard Kuhn's new one, but am offended by a criticism that insults my intelligence.

[David Ayers]

Tim Redman even came to this board to rebut this view of the label in relation to his album Snakeoil. I haven't asked Evan Parker but I'll be seeing him this week so I might float this one by him just for fun.

[7/4]

Tim Redman even came to this board to rebut this view of the label in relation to his album Snakeoil. I haven't asked Evan Parker but I'll be seeing him this week so I might float this one by him just for fun.

Who the fuck? Tim Berne!

[David Ayers]

Tim Redman even came to this board to rebut this view of the label in relation to his album Snakeoil. I haven't asked Evan Parker but I'll be seeing him this week so I might float this one by him just for fun.

Who the fuck? Tim Berne!

Heh heh. For some reason my brain is wired wrong and crosses over Tim Berne with Tim Redman (the Ezra Pound scholar). Duh. It sounded wrong when I wrote it...

I'll tell that to Charlie Parker when I see him next week...

[7/4]

I thought it was funny.

Anyway...I'd like to check this album out.

[Late]

I just want to know if there's a cover of "Wot a Man Pay a Fess" on this disc.

[A Lark Ascending]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Music does NOT have to swing to be good. Do you really think that Eicher is telling Kuhn, a musician for over 50 years, to cut an album that is ethereal, and not what Kuhn intended? As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that the Venuses that you so love are the ones where the artists are being told what to play.

Avant doesn't swing. Energy music doesn't swing. Hell, most Nessas don't swing. And yet, a lot of you guys are ALL OVER those.

More misplaced ECM bias.

The way I read Peter's post was just as a statement of personal preference.

I'm a great supporter of ECM and get as irritated as anyone by the 'Manfred's dastardly plot (probably in league with Andorrans)' response to anything ECM.

I don't believe Peter's post was one of those.

[Peter Friedman]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Music does NOT have to swing to be good. Do you really think that Eicher is telling Kuhn, a musician for over 50 years, to cut an album that is ethereal, and not what Kuhn intended? As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that the Venuses that you so love are the ones where the artists are being told what to play.

Avant doesn't swing. Energy music doesn't swing. Hell, most Nessas don't swing. And yet, a lot of you guys are ALL OVER those.

More misplaced ECM bias.

Your comments have little to do with what I said. I suggest you read what I did say again. I did not say that Eicher told Kuhn what to play.

What I did say was a reflection of my personal taste. Of course I realize that the taste of others may be very different. But I do not appreciate having you put words in my mouth that I did not say.

With only very limited exceptions, the music put out by ECM does not appeal to me. Whether Venus requests that Kuhn play standard tunes or not is to me, unimportant. it is the musicians interpretation of those tunes that matters to me. I also happen to like standards, and music that swings.

[jlhoots]

I guess I'm easy.

I like the Kuhn Venus CDs - but I also like this new ECM CD.

So sue me.

[JETman]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Music does NOT have to swing to be good. Do you really think that Eicher is telling Kuhn, a musician for over 50 years, to cut an album that is ethereal, and not what Kuhn intended? As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that the Venuses that you so love are the ones where the artists are being told what to play.

Avant doesn't swing. Energy music doesn't swing. Hell, most Nessas don't swing. And yet, a lot of you guys are ALL OVER those.

More misplaced ECM bias.

Your comments have little to do with what I said. I suggest you read what I did say again. I did not say that Eicher told Kuhn what to play.

What I did say was a reflection of my personal taste. Of course I realize that the taste of others may be very different. But I do not appreciate having you put words in my mouth that I did not say.

With only very limited exceptions, the music put out by ECM does not appeal to me. Whether Venus requests that Kuhn play standard tunes or not is to me, unimportant. it is the musicians interpretation of those tunes that matters to me. I also happen to like standards, and music that swings.

How did I misinterpret?

How could "This is what to me is the typical ECM approach" be read any differently than "Eicher persuaded Kuhn to play a certain way"?

C'mon. Why not just say that Kuhn simply recorded an album which you do not enjoy? You took the opportunity to rag on a label which has given us the opportunity to hear many artists which would've otherwise not been heard. To me, that's what it's all about. If you wanna restrict yourself, that's cool with me. ECM has a catalogue which exceeds 2000 in number at this point. I might go as far as to say that it's been more important in the overall development of music than even our beloved Blue Note.

[alankin]

I haven't heard this latest one, but Steve Kuhn's 1970s ECMs certainly swing. Or at least swung me.

[Peter Friedman]

I am a big fan of Steve Kuhn, but the parts of this CD I have heard are not my cup of Tea. This is what to me is the typical ECM approach.

Doesn't swing and too ethereal for my taste.

I am particularly fond of the many Steve Kuhn CDs on Concord, Reservoir, and Venus.

Also very much like Kuhn's - Live At Birdland - session on Blue Note.

Music does NOT have to swing to be good. Do you really think that Eicher is telling Kuhn, a musician for over 50 years, to cut an album that is ethereal, and not what Kuhn intended? As a matter of fact, I'm almost positive that the Venuses that you so love are the ones where the artists are being told what to play.

Avant doesn't swing. Energy music doesn't swing. Hell, most Nessas don't swing. And yet, a lot of you guys are ALL OVER those.

More misplaced ECM bias.

Your comments have little to do with what I said. I suggest you read what I did say again. I did not say that Eicher told Kuhn what to play.

What I did say was a reflection of my personal taste. Of course I realize that the taste of others may be very different. But I do not appreciate having you put words in my mouth that I did not say.

With only very limited exceptions, the music put out by ECM does not appeal to me. Whether Venus requests that Kuhn play standard tunes or not is to me, unimportant. it is the musicians interpretation of those tunes that matters to me. I also happen to like standards, and music that swings.

How did I misinterpret?

How could "This is what to me is the typical ECM approach" be read any differently than "Eicher persuaded Kuhn to play a certain way"?

C'mon. Why not just say that Kuhn simply recorded an album which you do not enjoy? You took the opportunity to rag on a label which has given us the opportunity to hear many artists which would've otherwise not been heard. To me, that's what it's all about. If you wanna restrict yourself, that's cool with me. ECM has a catalogue which exceeds 2000 in number at this point. I might go as far as to say that it's been more important in the overall development of music than even our beloved Blue Note.

Saying I don't care for most ECM recordings is not close to the same thing as saying that Eicher PERSUADED Kuhn to play a certain way. Actually I doubt very much that Kuhn was persuaded at all. My guess is that he enjoys playing music of varying styles, and that is fine. I was not "ragging" on ECM, just expressing an opinion that the music on that label rarely is to my taste.

[Daniel A]

Since many ECM recordings in fact do share a certain sound and in general differ conceptually from, say, albums put out by the label Venus I think it's quite possible to state that there's an "ECM approach". This approach does not appeal to Peter Friedman. Why would that upset anybody?

[Tom 1960]

Looks like I stirred up a hornets nest of sorts. To be honest, I'm not that all familiar with the label, except by name. I believe the only other release I own on that label is the Kuhn/Lovano date from a few years back "Mosly Coltrane" which I really enjoy. After listening to the sample tracks on I-Tunes, I'll most likely be picking this one up in the near future. Thanks for the input.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Tom 1960

[JETman]

Since many ECM recordings in fact do share a certain sound and in general differ conceptually from, say, albums put out by the label Venus I think it's quite possible to state that there's an "ECM approach". This approach does not appeal to Peter Friedman. Why would that upset anybody?

Me no care what he likes. I am not upset. I am just contesting a statement he made which I believe to be false, and which leads people who might otherwise take a chance on interesting music to ignore it altogether. God forbid I were to make a statement like "all Blue Notes sound alike" on a board like this. I would be crucified. I've enjoyed literally hundreds of ECM recordings as much as I've enjoyed recordings on other labels, WITHOUT placing labels on the labels!

Read his initial post and tell me if you don't see sweeping, nonsensical statements which read, for example, that the ECM approach produces music which doesn't swing. AFAIC, ECM's approach is similar to that of any other record label that has ever existed since the dawn of time: to make music which is interesting and enjoyable to enough people to stay in business. Since the label has been in existence for over 40 years, I'd say they've succeeded. If people want to restrict themselves to music that swings in the traditional sense, they are severely limiting their options. I couldn't live like that. If I did, all of my cd's would sound alike and I'd have to slit my wrists. Don't make me name the numerous labels which use this credo to cater to such people. There are way too many.