Cecil Taylor Article in NY Times

[AllenLowe]

it's funny because I find Ornette (in interviews) to be elliptical but brilliant - Cecil is elliptical but elliptical. Goes in circles that have no center? I hate metaphors, but that's the best I can do.

[JSngry]

I think Jim's use of the phrase "pimp the upcoming concert series" is unfair. Yes, the series is the news peg for the story -- the event or circumstance that makes a story about Cecil timely, the reason the story is relevant to readers right at this moment. But this story is certianly not defacto marketing copy designed to sell tickets, though, of course, it may have that effect. There is certainly a discussion to be had about how narrow definitions of timelines have negative consequences when it comes to covering artistic enterprise and merit, and we can also have a discussion about the the symbiotic and/or parasitic relationship between the music press and the music business and the role the media plays, willingly or not, as the marketing arm of the industry. But of all the things this story about Cecil is or is not, I wouldn't call it an advertorial by any stretch.

Did Ben Ratliff wake up one day, look at the papers and say hey, it's time to write an article about Cecil Taylor, and WOW, check this out, there's a series of concerts coming up? Were the concert promoters wringing their hands late into the night hoping that somebody, anybody, would notice their upcoming presentations? Would we have this story written this way at this time if not for the upcoming concert series? And are the promoters of the series pleasantly shocked and surprised that the article appeared when and as it did?

Once again, "pimping the upcoming concert series" is not at all a bad thing, and neither is writing an article about that uses Cecil Taylor as the hook. Nor, for that matter, is Cecil Taylor "bedazzling" the interviewer. It's all the same game - get people's attention, arouse their interest, get their asses in some seats, and put some of their money in sombodies elses' pockets. It's how people survive in the music business, and it's a good thing.

Just as very little of the magic that happens in the music is accidental, so it is that very little of the success that comes in the marketing of the music just happens by itself. People work to make things happen, and if the illusion of magic is considerably more marketable than is the reality of hard work, then all the more reason for the hard work to be disguised as much as possible.

[Mark Stryker]

"Timeliness" as a value in defining news ranks at the very top of the pyramid for the media, and obvious markers are those defined by the marketplace -- concerts, recordings, premieres, etc. To only use this criteria is a sign of laziness, of course, because you never want to become a total slave to the calendar or toady for the industry, but it is of course one of the ways the sausage gets made, especially in "selling" your ideas up the chain to your editors. For what it's worth, I can tell you one of the fundamentals of how I work is I keep a kind of a master calendar of all the events happening on my beat and I try to plan accordingly, often months in advance and outside the influence any publicist or pitch from industry sources. I look for important stories, people, music or other subjects I haven't written about recently or ever, reflections of trends that I see happening nationally, links that I can make between particular programs, composers, etc. so that I find a ways to use what is in some ways a "preview" story as a real springboard into a substantive piece about someone or something that illuminates the music for readers. Then there are other enterprise stories that exist outside the continuum, as it were, of the ongoing events calendar. (By the way, we sometimes joke that one example of something is a fluke, two examples is a coincidence but three examples is a trend.)

Re: one footnote in the Cecil Taylor story. Ratliff paraphrases Cecil at one point as "talking with intense loyalty about a line of particularly New York-identified piano players: Fats Waller, Teddy Wilson, Thelonious Monk, Mary Lou Williams, Mal Waldron, John Hicks." It's quite interesting to hear him linking himself in this way, especially with a player associated with elegance like Teddy Wilson and a mainstream post-bopper like John Hicks, who certainly was a power player.

I've never seen Cecil play live, but one summer night in 1988 I visited New York and went to hear Tommy Flanagan (w/George Mraz and Kenny Washington) at Sweet Basil and Cecil was also there hanging out and enjoying the music. On the break I remember Tommy looking across the room at one point, spying Cecil and saying, "Hey, C.T.!" with a big grin. Later that same night I went to Bradley's, where Kirk Lightsey was leading a trio -- can't remember who the bass player was but pretty sure it was Eddie Gladden on drums -- and Cecil was there too, sitting at a ringside table with at least one other guy, drinking and boisterously encouraging the musicians and acknowledging certain things that happened in the music with a clap of the hands, a laugh or an aside to somebody at the table.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

If PR people don't do their job, they get fired. If the press doesn't report on "current events", the musicians raise hell about neglect. And if nothing's happening (or perceived to not be happening), then the press writes about how dead everything is.

It's sausage, to be sure. But if you like sausage (and I generally do), then it's got to get made.

I myself am neither shocked nor dismayed at how - and why - it gets made.

To any musician who wants to have a career beyond that of being a hero to family and friends, the best advice to be offered is simple - learn the sausage.

[7/4]

I've seen Cecil around town and at the next table over the years. I've even passed him on the street. New York is like that.

[Chuck Nessa]

I have had multiple conversations with Cecil beginning in 1970. I have always understood everything he said.

My favorite "Cecil experience" was a limo ride, in Chicago, drinking cognac and talking about Wynton M.

[AllenLowe]

it's likely that he just thinks journalists are dumb. So he puts them on.

[Pete C]

it's likely that he just thinks journalists are dumb. So he puts them on.

Is that another one of your out of the blue conjectures, or do you have evidence? When I saw Ornette's wacky interview I'm sure he was just being Ornette, not putting on the interviewer.

[AllenLowe]

Ornette is different than Cecil - he just sounds like he says what he means, no matter who he is talking to. My conjecture is based on Chuck's experience and from having read years of interviews with Cecil. I think his degree of obfuscation is in reverse proportion to the respect he feels for the person he is talking to - little respect, more obfuscation. I am rarely wrong about such things. I've just known a lot of musicians with that mind set.

Edited May 6, 2012 by AllenLowe

[David Ayers]

Another thread about 'respect'. Hm.

[AllenLowe]

I though it was about Cecil.

[David Ayers]

It's about showing respect for Cecil. It explains nothing about Cecil.

[Larry Kart]

It's about showing respect for Cecil. It explains nothing about Cecil.

I thought Allen's point was that Cecil's verbal behavior was affected by the degree of respect he felt for the person he was talking to, not for the degree of respect that the other person demonstrated toward him. Not the same thing or theme, no?

[johnlitweiler]

Ornette is different than Cecil - he just sounds like he says what he means, no matter who he is talking to. My conjecture is based on Chuck's experience and from having read years of interviews with Cecil. I think his degree of obfuscation is in reverse proportion to the respect he feels for the person he is talking to - little respect, more obfuscation. I am rarely wrong about such things. I've just known a lot of musicians with that mind set.

I don't think these obfuscation accusations are at all fair to Cecil. He was very gracious, friendly, and patient with me, and the musicians and students I've met who've worked with or befriended him have had similar experiences.

About 36 years ago the critic J.B. Figi introduced Cecil to Fred Anderson at a late-night concert. The two chatted awhile and Cecil's encouragement meant a lot to Fred, who in those days was playing for tiny audiences and got damn little encouragement from anyone else.

[David Ayers]

It's about showing respect for Cecil. It explains nothing about Cecil.

I thought Allen's point was that Cecil's verbal behavior was affected by the degree of respect he felt for the person he was talking to, not for the degree of respect that the other person demonstrated toward him. Not the same thing or theme, no?

I wasn't referring in particular to Allen's post, though he used the word.

[johnlitweiler]

BTW there's an intriguing interview with Cecil in Howard Mandel's book "Miles Ornette Cecil: Jazz Beyond Jazz."

[Chuck Nessa]

Thanks for reminding me.

[AllenLowe]

I don't know if it's the same as the book, but here's a link to a Mandel/Taylor interview:

http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/177/

[Д.Д.]

The most interesting aspect of this article for me is its mentioning of pianist Thollem McDonas whom I have never even heard of, but now plan to check out.

[king ubu]

The most interesting aspect of this article for me is its mentioning of pianist Thollem McDonas whom I have never even heard of, but now plan to check out.

Same here!

[Pete C]

I do know that his current "manager" is a lady named Ruby something.

Actually, her name is Ana Isabel Ordonez, but her business is called Ruby Flower Productions.

[clifford_thornton]

The most interesting aspect of this article for me is its mentioning of pianist Thollem McDonas whom I have never even heard of, but now plan to check out.

Same here!

He's good. With his music, I see the piano as an expressive tool divorced somewhat from Tradition, but with energy and soul to spare. He's also a very nice person. Plays with Mike Watt (Minutemen)!

[Quasimado]

The most interesting aspect of this article for me is its mentioning of pianist Thollem McDonas whom I have never even heard of, but now plan to check out.

Same here!

He's good. With his music, I see the piano as an expressive tool divorced somewhat from Tradition, but with energy and soul to spare. He's also a very nice person. Plays with Mike Watt (Minutemen)!

Does being divorced somewhat from tradition mean that he (or any of these out cats) have to be subsidized in some way to make up for that? Can they stand on their own feet? Am I being too harsh?

Q

[paul secor]

The most interesting aspect of this article for me is its mentioning of pianist Thollem McDonas whom I have never even heard of, but now plan to check out.

Same here!

He's good. With his music, I see the piano as an expressive tool divorced somewhat from Tradition, but with energy and soul to spare. He's also a very nice person. Plays with Mike Watt (Minutemen)!

Does being divorced somewhat from tradition mean that he (or any of these out cats) have to be subsidized in some way to make up for that? Can they stand on their own feet? Am I being too harsh?

Q

Exactly what are you writing about???? Perhaps I'm dense. Please explain yourself.

[Quasimado]

The most interesting aspect of this article for me is its mentioning of pianist Thollem McDonas whom I have never even heard of, but now plan to check out.

Same here!

He's good. With his music, I see the piano as an expressive tool divorced somewhat from Tradition, but with energy and soul to spare. He's also a very nice person. Plays with Mike Watt (Minutemen)!

Does being divorced somewhat from tradition mean that he (or any of these out cats) have to be subsidized in some way to make up for that? Can they stand on their own feet? Am I being too harsh?

Q

Exactly what are you writing about???? Perhaps I'm dense. Please explain yourself.

Seems clear enough to me, but just for you ... if they are divorced from the tradition in jazz, it (perhaps) means that few people listen, so therefore they (the musicians) may be subsidized by public funds... It happens in Europe all the time. Whether it should happen is something else. It didn't happen in the past... It may not happen with these guys ...

Q