BLINDFOLD TEST #5 - answers

[couw]

2. as I was exploring ethnic music at the same time, there was not enough relation to this in it - where I was checking out the African-American roots of the music, his was trying to gain some independence from it and find its European identity.

there is a lot of Asian influence in the music I believe. The African components were imported indirectly through American jazz influences. The rest is European and Asian. Indeed there is not much of the "black" groove, but there definitely IS a groove that I find damn hard to resist.

I am not very familiar with Sauer and Kronberg besides some 60s Mangelsdorff. I am an import-German remember and still finding my way around the German jazz scene and its history.

You do realise that this cup of tea thing was copyrighted/trademarked by Dan don't you?

[couw]

"Expectations" is well worth 10 euro-zlotys, no?

I think it is a very strong album, all together, and I wouldn't want to miss the tracks with strings, actually. I like it as it is.

ubu

I'll see if I can get it passed my wife to include it on some future 2001 orderform

[mikeweil]

there is a lot of Asian influence in the music I believe. The African components were imported indirectly through American jazz influences. The rest is European and Asian. Indeed there is not much of the "black" groove, but there definitely IS a groove that I find damn hard to resist.

I am not very familiar with Sauer and Kronberg besides some 60s Mangelsdorff. I am an import-German remember and still finding my way around the German jazz scene and its history.

You do realise that this cup of tea thing was copyrighted/trademarked by Dan don't you?

Of course I do realise this, that's my justification for my weird combination of jazz history and autobiographical elaborations ....

I'd sure like to recommend a Kronberg CD, but I don't know of anything really adequate, too bad he is gone ... There are some of the Mangelsdorff groups with Sauer and some of his available, if you like Albert, you won't go wrong with any of his MPS albums; the Sauer releases (there is a new trio available through Zweitausendeins) I haven't heard. Hearing him live was enough for me

I am aware of the (east, in this particular case) Asian influence, but well, it just didn't move me that much - I was listening to a lot of Asian and Arabian stuff as well and found the inspirational sources much more exiting.

And I'm sure there is a cup (of tea and else) for everybody!

[mikeweil]

BTW, talking about German Jazzers going East - if you ever can get a copy of George Gruntz' MPS LP "Noon In Tunisia", grab it! This is some really exiting Jazz-Arabian fusion. There is a TV documentary in the SWR vaults, they should get that out on DVD!

[JSngry]

I'd like to thank John for including a piece by Quartet Out in his BFT, and I'm heartened by all the positive response to it. There is a bit of a story behind the album, and that cut in particular, but I don't have time to go into it right now. Besides, we need some more comments now that the answers have been revealed!

...

I'll talk about that (and other things pertaining to the cut) in greater detail after others have weighed in.

(and yes - I am TOTALLY embarrased that I'm the one person who should have gotten #11 and didn't!)

Jim, may I take you up on your promise before BFT6 hits us in the face?

Ok, here goes...

First of all, "Days Of Wine And Four Roses" was written by Lyles as a tribute to Charles Brown, with whom he gigged locally in NYC for a while in the early-mid 80s, before Charles' "rediscovery". The title is how CB always introduced "The Days Of Wine And Roses". It's a beautiful tune, with changes that move logically, yet in a totally non-cliched manner, and a melody that displays a melancholy lyricism that's neither trite nor precious. The sustained notes in the melody and the second part require full attention to the subleties of phrasing and dynamics to make everything sing the way it needs to. It's an "easy" song to hear, but not so easy to play correctly.

About the session - we left Dallas at about 11 AM, expecting to make San Marcos about 4-5 PM. About 30 minutes after we left, heading south, it began to snow. By the time we hit Waco, about 90 miles away, we were in the throes of a full fledged snow and ice storm. We briefy debated turning back and rescheduling, but full of a sense of mission, we quickly decided to go on ahead, that they'd have to kill us to keep us from making this album. The further south we went, the worse the weather got, and before too long, we were travelling about 25 mph tops, when we moved at all. We got to Austin about 6 PM, stopped at a Whole Foods Market to stock up on premium beers, and finally pulled into San Marcos about 9 PM (San Marcos is in the "Hill Country" of Texas, and by then, driving had become rather, uh, "adventurous", to say the least.

We had rented a cabin in the woods, and getting there from San Marcos proper SHOULD have taken 20 minutes or so, but it took another hour and a half. After checking in, we called the studio and the engineer. Guess what? The studio equipment had somehow frozen due to the negligence of the maintenance staff, and the engineer, who lived o top of a hill, was unable to leave home. But he placed some calls, and a plan was put into place to have the studio ready the next afternoon.

When we arrived at the studio the next afternoon (another crawl of a drive), we found out that the engineer was still unable to get out of his house, but he had called two of his top students to come in and get things rolling. These kids were good, and we had a productive afternoon and early evening, getting acclimated to the studio, getting everything positioned right, etc., and then recording a bit. After that, we spent some time getting some samples ready for insertion into the mix. We ended up using two tracks from that first day's work, although I'm sorry to say that I can't remember which ones off the top of my head. The next day, the roads had been cleared, the regular engineer was in place, and we spent an entire day and part of the evening recording the rest of the album. Mixing took place the following day, an all-day affair which left all of us totally drained but happy (eventually...).

Now, about me and this solo - we had been rehearsing 2-3 times a week for a month or so to get everything good and tight, to eliminate all the kinks in the heads and the formats, and just to simulate, as much as possible, a regulary working band so the record would have that "seasoned" feel to it. I was drinking tons of coffee and ingesting some pretty heavy quantities of ephedra and "miscellaneous" to maintain energy for a true round-the-clock schedule at home and while playing gigs and rehearsals. A few days before we left, I thought I was having a stoke - I got real light-headed, my left arm went numby/tingly, and my heart was beating WAY faster than it should have been. I called LTB to come and get me. She took me to the doctor, and he checked me out thoroughly. All was well, just heart palpitations brought on by all the stimulants, and an anxiety attack brought on by the palpitations. Cut out the coffee, ephedra, and etc, and you'll be fine was the doctor's assessment. So I did, which was difficult to do on the trip down, given the "party" that the other two non-driving members of the group were having all the way. But I was good.

We cut "Days..." early on the second day, and before we tackled it, I decided to have one small cup of coffee to counteract the beer I had been drinking pretty much non-stop since we stopped in Austin. Big mistake - I immediately began to feel light-headed, I turned pale, and my heart started racing. Lyles, knowing what had went down a few days earlier, asked me if I was ok, and I said, "Sure. Let's go" even though I wasn't sure exactly what would happen. I knew enough not to get anxious though, so the aniexty attacks never came. But the other symptoms lingered on as we began to get a take.

I had begun to really "get inside" this tune in the last few weeks of rehearsals, and I wasn't about to step down now - we had all been through so much hell just getting this far, and everybody was pumped, sensing that "triumph" was within reach. But my head was feeling REALLY funny as I began to play, although by now it was coming and going in 3-5 second intervals. I think you can hear a combination of confidence and carefullness in my solo - there's times when you can hear me feeling really loose and comfortable, and other times when you can hear that I've got both feet planted firmly on the ground to guard against falling down, both figuratively and literally. After the take, we listened to the playback, and I asked for another go-round, as the symptons had begun to subside. We tried a few, but none had the "suspended" yet "rolling" quality of this one. Lyles and Dennis are some of the LISTENINGEST M.F.s I've EVER known, and they were with me all the way on that first full take (we had a false start or two before getting a full one). But I was too wrapped up in asserting/proving myself (and TO myself) in a "healthy" manner to just relax and play, and they were with me on THAT, too, damn them. So we went with the first take, finding it to have just the right quality to compliment the overall vibe of the tune.

There's two fingering glitches along the way in my solo, one brought on by the "condition" of the moment, and the other by the idea reaching my fingers a split-second too late. I'll not tell you where they are, or which is which, 'cause it's none of your damn business!

One thing you don't hear on the cut as presented by John is the non-musical intro, the "Whilst travelling through this unfriendly world" thing. When we made the album, we had been hearing rumors that Charles Brown had either died or was just about to. I came across this phrase on a compliation called GOD'S MIGHTY HAND - GOSPEL EVANGELISTS (Gospel Heritage HT CD 09, and a total mindphukk of a CD, btw). The track in question was cut in 1948, and features a brief singing segment followed by a preaching one. Sister Winn has a very "primative" style in both segments, and the recording quality is somewhat shrill and tinny, reflecting the condiitons under which it was both recorded and pressed, I'm sure. But that phrase stuck in my head and the band's (especially after the trip down...), so it was decided that we HAD to use it for the intro to this song. We had gotten the sample isolated and captured the night before, and presented it to the engineer during the mixing. I worked with him to get the speed slowed down, but with Sister Winn's pitch kept intact (the miracles of digital!). When we got that far, I asked him if he coud put some effects on it to make it sound like "a big but disembodied voice coming from the clouds", and if he could get the tempo of the spoken words in sync w/the tempo of the song, so a rhythm would be established by the words that would not be broken when the music began. "Sure, give me about an hour" was his response. So we all went off to a neighboring bar for beer, food, beer, some TV, beer, a few cigarettes, and beer. When we came back, the guy had it done.

Not bad for a guy whose main gig, besides teaching his craft at the college in San Marcos (the college also owns the studio, which is a converted fire station) is being Willie Nelson's engineer. His name is Bobby Arnold, and he went from being downright perplexed at our music to being furious that we expected him to be able to figure ANYTHING out playing like we did, to digging it, to actually getting enthusiastic about the mix and post-production effects (a band that's 3/4 comprised of SERIOUS Beatle-heads HAS to play the "studio as an instrument" game at least a few times their first time out, even if we're otherwise all-accoustic) we insisted on doing. I'm not real crazy about the overall sound of the CD, my own sound in particular (I think LIVE AT THE MEATHOUSE captures all of our sounds more accurately), but I gotta hand it to the guy - after he got over the initial shock, he got on the team all the way.

Well, that's it. Hope that's some decent enough commentary. Thanks again to everybody who dug the piece.

[couw]

Woa! thanks Jim, that's a GREAT story, to a GREAT track and a GREAT album.

I am sure it will make me hear things differently next time I give it a spin. And take care with the stimulants will you, not that you drop dead on us...

[couw]

(I think LIVE AT THE MEATHOUSE captures all of our sounds more accurately)

subliminal messages again?

[John B]

Jim -

thanks for the story! I'm going to pull out Welcome to the Party tomorrow and give it another spin. (I'll probably spin the live disc, as well, while I am at it.)

[JSngry]

...take care with the stimulants will you, not that you drop dead on us...

Not a problem. I hardly ever drink coffee anymore and ephedra's been outlawed. Besides, these days, although it's too often the last thing I find, sleep is one of the first things I look for. The irony is delicious, especially fried.

Edited January 27, 2004 by JSngry

[Tom Storer]

"Days Of Wine And Four Roses" was written by Lyles as a tribute to Charles Brown, with whom he gigged locally in NYC for a while in the early-mid 80s, before Charles' "rediscovery". The title is how CB always introduced "The Days Of Wine And Roses".

That's pretty funny. Dexter Gordon used to introduce it as "Les Jours du Vin Rosé."

[mikeweil]

Last chance for comments before # 6 hits our ears ....

The Max Roach Quintet, sans piano, that's another fascinating but neglected stream in modern jazz history. For Max the turn came after Brownie's death, when Kenny Dorham was in the band. They recorded the notorious 3/4 album still with piano, one for Argo with piano, but then there was one without, with Mobley, and for the next few years Roach featured quintets sans piano. I bet Roach and Dorham cooked up that idea together, as Dorham recorded without piano for Riverside around the same time. Besides the EmArcy albums there were albums for Time, Riverside, and Candid. The absence of these albums from the Mosaic makes for an incomplete picture, IMO, especially 'cause one of Max' most important albums ever, "We Insist: Freedom Now!", was among them - probably too political in nature for Bob Shad, the producer at EmArcy, or for the label.

In Roach's case I really can imagine he found the presence of a piano restricting, as his rhythmic commentaries to the soloists may have tended to clash with those of pianists, it would be very interesting to compare his playing with and without pianists - on the other hand, Mal Waldron, whom he hired after the piano-less bands period ended, was a "heavy" pianist, rhythmically. But the main reason for excluding a pianist may have been the experimentation with unusual time signatures: no other band at the time, not even Brubeck's, played more pieces in 3/4, 5/4, 7/4 and 9/4. The role of Roach's quintets for this aspect of jazz rhythm is almost totally underestimated, IMO - but this is an aspect of rhythmic exploration many musicians still avoid, as it is more difficult to swing or groove in these time signatures than in common 4/4 time.

On a bottom line, Roach and some of the members of his band at the time, especially Tommy Turrentine and Julian Priester, have not been given enough credit for their innovations.

[couw]

more food for thought and more new things to hear in familiar music.

thanks mike

[connoisseur series500]

Well, I got one sideman correct (Pepper Adams) and correctl identified two standards. Aside from that, didn't correctly guess anything. This is my usual average. I don't own any of the discs. (BTW, great song, JimSangry!)

At least I didn't cheat by looking at other people's posts and ended up regurgitating what others said... Why do you guys do that? Where's the fun?

I propose a new rule: No looking at anybody's other posts unless you don't plan to describe or guess the tracks. Quite frankly, I had to read through all the back posts and I found much that was repetitive owing to people having read the posts of others. Takes away the fun.

[connoisseur series500]

Now I shall wait for the arrival of #6. :rsmile:

[couw]

well Paul, I don't quite understand it myself. But I live by the maxim "to each his own" and I'm not going to propose any rules. I can only URGE people not to peek.

Thanks for participating and thanks for your guesses. Lyles West & Dennis Durick (from quartet out) can be proud I think.

[Daniel A]

Actually I can't see anything wrong with having a dialog in the "guessing" thread. If someone has posted an AMG link or something that clearly gives the answer away I won't go there, but I like to be able to comment on what other people think they hear. If we did this test sitting in a room together it would probably be done like that; those who knew the answer would keep it to themselves, and the others would discuss what they thought was playing. One problem is of course that some will not be able to join into the conversation because they haven't got their discs yet.

What I would like to see, though, are more comments about what people think about the musical qualities (as well as other qualities) of the individual tracks and performances, already at the "guessing" stage of each test. Otherwise those who haven't got a clue about most of what's on the discs might feel that they are somewhat out of the game. Besides, I think it's more interesting to see what people like and don't like (and why) than just their guesses. That's my opinion, of course...

[connoisseur series500]

I think it's more interesting to see what people like and don't like (and why) than just their guesses. That's my opinion, of course... 

I agree and try to mention whether I like the tune or not. Of course, sometimes I cannot determine whether I like something or not on only two or three hearings. Most of the time I can, but not always.

Yes, I think we should discuss whether we like the songs or not. I particularly like Dan's DKDC comments. That's the typical type of honesty we get from Dan which makes him a joy to read.

Regarding looking at the comments of others: I get your point Daniel, but my problem with it as I had to read 5 pages of posts was the regurgitated comments. How many times did I read that tune #1 was from a movie score as soon as one poster had mentioned it? I say again, where's the fun? Come on everyone, use your own imagination. This isn't a contest to see how many correct identifications you get. It should be as Daniel says a forum where you mention whether a tune turns you on or not.

If you don't wish to comment on the music or don't have the time (like Catesta) then that's fine, but don't look at everyone's comments then post. Surely that will cloud your judgement?

Edited February 1, 2004 by connoisseur series500

[neveronfriday]

I think it's more interesting to see what people like and don't like (and why) than just their guesses. That's my opinion, of course... 

I agree and try to mention whether I like the tune or not. Of course, sometimes I cannot determine whether I like something or not on only two or three hearings. Most of the time I can, but not always.

Yes, I think we should discuss whether we like the songs or not. I particularly like Dan's DKDC comments. That's the typical type of honesty we get from Dan which makes him a joy to read.

Regarding looking at the comments of others: I get your point Daniel, but my problem with it as I had to read 5 pages of posts was the regurgitated comments. How many times did I read that tune #1 was from a movie score as soon as one poster had mentioned it? I say again, where's the fun? Come on everyone, use your own imagination. This isn't a contest to see how many correct identifications you get. It should be as Daniel says a forum where you mention whether a tune turns you on or not.

If you don't wish to comment on the music or don't have the time (like Catesta) then that's fine, but don't look at everyone's comments then post. Surely that will cloud your judgement?

Have you guys ever thought about the fact that similar comments can come from a CD that everyone has?

I remember that after I had posted I read the whole thread a while later and was surprised at how many similar comments there were. I attributed it to the fact that we all had the same CD.

Example: The first tune does sound like sth from a movie, and that was the first thought that came to my mind. So why should I say it isn't? Just to avoid sounding like other people?

Cheers!

[JSngry]

Example: The first tune does sound like sth from a movie, and that was the first thought that came to my mind. So why should I say it isn't? Just to avoid sounding like other people?

That was my first impression too, due to the length, structure, and instumentation. I think it's likely that any number of listeners will have the same general responses to certain things based on certain criteria. It's like when a lot of people hear 20s jazz, they'll say "CARTOON MUSIC", or when they hear organ, they say "ROLLER RINK".

We're generally more hip than THAT in these parts, but "simialr impressions" don't necessarily infer lazy listening/thinking.

[mikeweil]

I always thought that "dialogue" Daniel describes was part of the game!

I post only with links when I exactly know a track, but comparing guesses is part of the fun after I have posted my own, and deus is right with his thoughts about us probably having some items in all of our collections, and there is nothing to be ashamed of if we are thinking alike. I too thought of a movie soundtrack when hearing # 1 without knowing that track!

And the likes and dislikes are just as important to me as the guesses are. We are all winners in these BT's no matter how many correct hits we achieve!

Edited February 1, 2004 by mikeweil

[tjobbe]

please do not laugh but the very first impression was a Disney film soundtrack for Jungle Book from Reithermann (guess it was the Overture).. so "Track 1 and Film" was immeaditly there

....but I have to admit that my main motivation for sharing the Blindfolds is because rarely no one in my personal environment does like to listen to Jazz, so you somewhat dealing with the same musicians all over the place.... its like getting fresh wind in and some exiting new stuff to listen to.... getting the right "vote" is not what I'm after

Cheers, Tjobbe

DIT: arghhhh my keyboard sucks... stupid Laptop eitheer to many "e's" or none

Edited February 1, 2004 by tjobbe

[couw]

... rarely no one in my personal environment does like to listen to Jazz...

you're welcome at any time. I'll make sure there's beer in the house.

[mikeweil]

....but I have to admit that my main motivation for sharing the Blindfolds is because rarely no one in my personal environment does like to listen to Jazz

You're welcome here too - in fact anybody from the board passing through the Rhein-Main area is!

[mikeweil]

I'll make sure there's beer in the house.

Is that really a problem? I thought the brewery was round the corner?

[couw]

it is!

it's just far enough to get lost on the way home if your not thinking clearly anymore...