JSngry Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 Yeah, I tend to be a tenor-centric S.O.B. Occupational hazard, I suppose. Quote
mikeweil Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) Yeah, I tend to be a tenor-centric S.O.B. Occupational hazard, I suppose. Talk about some drum-centric hits victim... Edited January 21, 2004 by mikeweil Quote
Dan Gould Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but here're my random reactions to the answers: #2- Well, what can I say, I am now zero for two when a Mosaic cut that I own is used on a BFT. ARGH! #3 - This cut definitely pushes me more towards the Elvin Mosaic. I've hesitated due at least partially to the era, tempered a bit by the fact that the LP with Morgan is the only one of his I have yet to hear, so its something I need to get on, and this track tells me there's other good stuff here, too, so thanks John for opening my eyes to that. #5 - Well, now I can say that I've heard Jim's playing, and I am certainly impressed. However, I do not find Jim's post regarding his own track (in the discussion thread) to be just a bit of fun. I'm sorry, but I do not. I think that it violates the spirit of the blindfold test and the joint discussion/debate/figgurin' out that takes place in the discussion thread. Its been said over and over again, if you know what it is, just say that you do or post a link. That doesn't mean that you should put up disinformation as a joke. Maybe I am overstating it, but personally I don't think it was right. Jim should have simply said, 'I have this one." My two cents, fwiw. #6 & #15 - Lucky and Art Pepper are two guys I have slept on and that clearly must come to an end soon! And finally, #7 - I said that I "wonder if its Slide Hampton, but the instrumentation doesn't match his latest" or words to that effect, so I am simply going to close by saying "Wooo Hooo!! I don't care if it was a lucky guess, I got one!!!!!" Thanks again John for an enjoyable disc, all things considered. Quote
Man with the Golden Arm Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but here're my random reactions to the answers: #5 - Well, now I can say that I've heard Jim's playing, and I am certainly impressed. However, I do not find Jim's post regarding his own track (in the discussion thread) to be just a bit of fun. I'm sorry, but I do not. I think that it violates the spirit of the blindfold test and the joint discussion/debate/figgurin' out that takes place in the discussion thread. Its been said over and over again, if you know what it is, just say that you do or post a link. That doesn't mean that you should put up disinformation as a joke. Maybe I am overstating it, but personally I don't think it was right. Jim should have simply said, 'I have this one." My two cents, fwiw. "TRACK 5 - People seem to think that this is a "Europen" band, but frankly, I don't hear that. Maybe superficailly, in the drumming, but not really. Whatever, it's an absolutely gorgeous tune, and the tenorist who plays the melody does so superbly. The tenor soloist is telling his story his own way, too. Definitely nothing innovative, but definitely a truly personal expression all the way around, and that means a lot to me. Can't wait for the identity to be revealed!" JSngry's post... Boy next thing Jim will be tagging cars in Singapore. Go out and pick that switch now, man!!! I gotta start reading the rules, here. Quote
JSngry Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) #5 - Well, now I can say that I've heard Jim's playing, and I am certainly impressed. However, I do not find Jim's post regarding his own track (in the discussion thread) to be just a bit of fun. I'm sorry, but I do not. I think that it violates the spirit of the blindfold test and the joint discussion/debate/figgurin' out that takes place in the discussion thread. Its been said over and over again, if you know what it is, just say that you do or post a link. That doesn't mean that you should put up disinformation as a joke. Maybe I am overstating it, but personally I don't think it was right. Jim should have simply said, 'I have this one." My two cents, fwiw. Fair enough, Dan, but where's the disinformation in this? People seem to think that this is a "Europen" band, but frankly, I don't hear that. Maybe superficailly, in the drumming, but not really. Whatever, it's an absolutely gorgeous tune, and the tenorist who plays the melody does so superbly. The tenor soloist is telling his story his own way, too. Definitely nothing innovative, but definitely a truly personal expression all the way around, and that means a lot to me. Can't wait for the identity to be revealed! Honest sentiments all, and no attempts at deceit or misdirection. I sincerely meant everything I said. It IS a gorgeous tune, Pete DOES play the melody superbly, I AM telling my story, it's NOT anything innovative, we DO try to be as honest and personal in our music as we possibly can be, and I honestly COULDN'T wait for the identity to be revealed. Not a speck of disinformation there, sorry. If prizes were being awarded, yeah, I'd have disqualified myself. But all we were supposed to do was give our honest impressions of the music, and that's exactly what I did. What impressions would I have had of the cut if I ahdn't been on it? I don't know. That's like asking me what goes on at my job when I'm not there. I don't know - I've never been there when I'm not there! And I really DON'T think we sound "European"! The joke for me came in Randy's poker allusion, becasue a "bit" of mine is "Musicians You'd Not Want To Play Poker With". Some examples: Coleman Hawkins - No way in hell to figure out what he's holding. Ben Webster - You COULD win some hands, but you'd be afraid to. Lester Young - You'd probably win ALL the hands, but feel so bad about doing so that you'd give him all his money back, and probably some of yours too. John Coltrane - Would never take the horn out of his mouth long enough to ante up, so what's the point? etc. THAT was the "joke", not my response in the discussion thread. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Edited January 21, 2004 by JSngry Quote
Dan Gould Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 Perhaps you are right, Jim. There wasn't real disinformation, though the comment about the European thing in the drumming leaves open the possibility there's something to the suggestion. But are impressions necessary of music you yourself created? You were basically giving props to yourself. Not that they aren't earned, mind you. Personally, I'm the last guy to critique my own voice over performances-I always concentrate on the areas I think are weak, or where I can tell I was running out of breath, or my voice wavered or a momentary something where I don't think I was in the moment anymore. Guess that's a difference between gigs that are creative but, at heart, commerce, and gigs that are just purely creative. Quote
JSngry Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 Oh, I can and will critique myself. And I can do it on this cut. Stick around. But if I gave TOO much information, people might have wondered about that, why I was SO analytical about that one cut and not the others, or if I went the "coy" route, that might have given something away as well. And if I said a little something somethin about every OTHER cut and just gave a curt "I have this" for one, well, THAT looks funny too. I know that Jim R is ALL OVER little clues like that! A lot of the people here know I'm in this band and that we have some CDs out, so I just tried to make my comment "blend in" with all my others, just gave some "general" impressions like I did for every other cut on this Test. Not really giving props to myself (you'll notice that my comment about my own playing is decidedly lacking in adjectives), but definitely to Lyles, Dennis, & Pete, whom I think are richly deserving. Tried to make it inconspicuous, and I think it succeeded in blending in well with the rest of my guesses, most of which, if you'll notice, weren't really guesses either. Just went with the flow of the moment, that's all. As for the "European" thing as it pertains to the drumming, I can honestly see that, because Dennis is a huge DeJohnette buff, and Jack did a lot of archetypical work on ECM. You can hear a DeJohnette-y quality in Dennis's playing, I think, so that's why I made the comment I did. Again, a totally honest comment. Quote
randyhersom Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 Just to be clear, I enjoyed Jim's comments on track 5 immensely in retrospect, and my big red letters were a tribute to the cleverness with which I was had! Quote
randyhersom Posted January 21, 2004 Report Posted January 21, 2004 Three is also the number of tracks in my own collection that I failed to identify the artist on, and Quartet Out was one of them, along with Dewey Redman and Pee Wee Russell. During the good ole umlimited download days of eMusic, I was adding to my collection way faster than I could check it all out, so I'm not beating myself up too much over it. All in all I think I had a decent BFT and thank John for the very cool tunes. Quote
couw Posted January 22, 2004 Author Report Posted January 22, 2004 I edited the first post to include a remark about Farrell actually being featured on track 3. I still cannot fathom to understand what it means to be tricked on your own test. Do I need to see a doctor you think? Quote
couw Posted January 22, 2004 Author Report Posted January 22, 2004 As for the bickering about Jim's reaction to his own band/track/solo, it was as much his Test as it was mine in a way when it comes to this track. I found his remark to be funny and neatly cryptic. It did indeed fit well with his other statements, not only WRT tracks from this BFT, but previous ones as well. Quote
king ubu Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 #6 & #15 - Lucky and Art Pepper are two guys I have slept on and that clearly must come to an end soon! Dan, kick yourself real hard for not getting the Pepper Galaxy from zweitausendeins (16CDs for some 30 Euros or some...) - sorry, that's mean of me! Regarding Thompson: may I suggest you start with the marvellous Impulse CD which holds those beautiful trio tracks with Oscar Pettiford, as well as some more with Jimmy Cleveland, it's titled "Tricotism". Then the Paris recordings are a beautiful lot! There's two discs in the recent jazz in Paris series (as well as a third with Sammy Price), and there are two "Complete Vogue Recordings" volumes (which might be relatively difficult to find, try amazon france). I have all of those and love them, too! The disc couw took his track from is from that Americans Swingin' in Paris series, which I have not yet started buying, but the Thompson sure sounds like another winner. If you are looking for further Thompson recommendations, I am not your man, as there are others much better informed and with much bigger Thompson collections around these corners. ubu Quote
king ubu Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 As for the bickering about Jim's reaction to his own band/track/solo, it was as much his Test as it was mine in a way when it comes to this track. I found his remark to be funny and neatly cryptic. It did indeed fit well with his other statements, not only WRT tracks from this BFT, but previous ones as well. I found those comments of Jim pretty witty and funny! No problem at all! ubu Quote
couw Posted January 22, 2004 Author Report Posted January 22, 2004 THIS is the one for Dan, definitely!!! Quote
mikeweil Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 The joke for me came in Randy's poker allusion, becasue a "bit" of mine is "Musicians You'd Not Want To Play Poker With". Some examples: Coleman Hawkins - No way in hell to figure out what he's holding. Ben Webster - You COULD win some hands, but you'd be afraid to. Lester Young - You'd probably win ALL the hands, but feel so bad about doing so that you'd give him all his money back, and probably some of yours too. John Coltrane - Would never take the horn out of his mouth long enough to ante up, so what's the point? etc. p.s. PLEASE give a sample of "etc."!!! Quote
JSngry Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 Art Tatum - never sit down at a table with a man who has more than two arms. etc... Quote
mikeweil Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 If you are looking for further Thompson recommendations, I am not your man, as there are others much better informed and with much bigger Thompson collections around these corners. I researched my own Lucky Thompson discography and really can recommend ANYTHING he recorded after 1950, not one bad solo among them. I will send the disco to anybody sending me a PM or an e-mail with a valid mail adress, I think I have all the recent releases covered, although there still may be some minor inaccuracies. The two Vogue CDs are already OOP, I'm afraid. But I'll take the time over the next few days and post a list of recent CD's in the Lucky Thompson thread and post a link here. ubu, you have the Impulse CD with Pettiford? Quote
mikeweil Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 etc... Dizzy Gillespie - or you'll get to know the truth about how his trumpet was bent. Quote
JSngry Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 I smell a new thread a-brewin' here... Quote
mikeweil Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 Back to Blindfold Business .... I re-listened to Jim's track with the knowledge in mind it's him, and I'm really glad I didn't say anything negative about it in the first place - I really like it, that really personal expressiveness that's in it, it's honest and sincere, and that's a lot more than many musicians can claim for themselves. In fact, that's what I'm looking for in any type of music, above everything else. Technical prowess leaves me cold. I reckon your modesty enforced the remark about disqualifying yourself - c'mon, it's really not that bad ... Will you send me a PM where to send how many bucks to get your two CDs, please? Quote
mikeweil Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 I smell a new thread a-brewin' here... Start here! Quote
desertblues Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 Just want to say it again-THANKS for the disc and for posting such detailed answers! So far each of the tests I've participated in (3,4 and 5) have led me to at least one artist I want to hear more of: first it was Eddie Higgins and this time it is Albert Mangelsdorff. Count me as one of those who really dug this one! Quote
couw Posted January 22, 2004 Author Report Posted January 22, 2004 even someone who didn't participate in the test was set on the trail of Mangelsdorff after reading the answers. Ain't that cool! Quote
RDK Posted January 22, 2004 Report Posted January 22, 2004 I'm revisiting this disc as I write this and following along with the "notes." Again, my thanks to Couw for such an enjoyable and, in some cases, ear-opening disc. I'm embarrased to say that I have three of the tracks in my collection but failed to recognize them. A couple of others I "recognized" as something else entirely (which I fear is becoming a habit for me). I have no Mangelsdorff in my collection, but the track included here makes me want to run out and buy one very quickly. And while I do enjoy the AEC, I've always shied away from the disc with Fontella Bass since I often find such collaborations "iffy." One thing that strikes me as I consider my "mistakes" in identifying tunes is just how much composition and improvisation seems built on familiar tunes - the "so-called "jazz standards." I know there's a long history of this and many different tunes share the same chord structures, themes, etc. (I'm not that familiar with the musical terminology, but you get my drift.) For some reason, I keep identifying Monk (or at least his influences) in tunes not composed by (or at least credited to) him. Am I crazy or doesn't Ray Anderson (trk 12) at least quote some Monk in the opening? And no offense to Jim or Lyles West, but "Days of Wine and Four Roses" (trk 5) - a track which I'm digging more and more with repeated listenings - at least starts out sounding (to me) like Mingus' "Self-Portrait in Three Colors" (though now I'm also hearing a very brief section around 2:38 that reminds me of, I think, a Keith Jarrett piece). But I think that's cool, from both player and listener perspectives, that we can, subconsciously or otherwise, insert or interpret the thousands of musical "licks" we've heard over the years. The problem for me, with my limited knowledge, is that I tend to glom onto a familiar theme and mistake that for the tune rather than just a small part of the improvisation. This isn't usually a problem, of course, when I know the tune in advance, but trying to "guess" it in a blindfold test situation really throws me off. But it gets me thinking about it, which is much more important in my humble opinion. (By the way, Jim, very lovely solo there - as I've said before, I'm often a bit frightened of "outside" players, but I love it when they play something more accessible. There's something about the sweetness and sourness of such a performance that really affects me. I love, for example, the sound of Archie Shepp playing ballads.) I'm currently on a brief purchasing moratorium, but as soon as it's over I've gotta get me a few of these ceedees... Quote
couw Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Posted January 23, 2004 RDK, I'm glad you liked it. My musically untrained ears don't hear a distinct similarity between Days of Wine and Bourbon and Self Portrait; there is some to be sure, but the Mingus line is "concave," whereas the QOut line is "flat," tending to "convex." I might as well have saved you this post as I think it is unlikely that you will understand my idiosyncratic description. You may though and if not, I have added another post to my counter Quote
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