bneuman Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 On top of that, fuck David Stern and the NBA owners for pitching a fit and vetoing the Lakers' trade for Chris Paul saying it "wouldn't be fair to have players of that caliber together on one team" after standing pat and allowing Miami to put that ridiculous all-star team together. It was nothing but bias against the Lakers for doing what they're supposed to do which is try to win. David Stern and the owners did not veto the trade on the grounds that it would not be fair to have players of that caliber together on one team. Nor was the situation anything like the free agent signings by the Heat the previous year. At the time of the trade, New Orleans did not have an owner. The NBA and its 29 other owners collectively owned them until the league could find a suitable new owner. When Stern vetoed the trade, he vetoed it because of his authority as owner of the team, not as commissioner of the NBA. It is not uncommon that general managers agree to trades which are then vetoed by owners of the team. It is uncommon that the potential trade gets publicized before the veto happens. Stern could not and would not have vetoed a trade involving any other team, the Heat included, because he would not be representing the ownership of one of the teams involved in that trade. In vetoing the trade on behalf of the Hornets, I think Stern made a good decision. The Hornets were set to receive Lamar Odom, along with Kevin Martin (I think) and another piece or two of so-so veterans with years left on their contracts. None of these pieces would have made the Hornets much better or drawn an audience. All of them would saddle the Hornets with significant money owed for years. The Clipper trade, on the other hand, brought them Eric Gordon. Gordon is a young and promising star. If he overcomes his injury problems, he might be a good player to build a franchise around. Even if he isn't, or he is not interested in staying in New Orleans for long, his contract is up at the end of this year. They can let him leave if they want to pursue rebuilding another way, while if they want him back I think he's a restricted free agent so they can take him for at least a year if they want, for less money than he will be able to demand after he's an RFA. The Clipper trade was much better if one is looking to entice a new owner to purchase a team. The Laker trade introduced an impediment to the rebuilding process; the Clipper trade makes rebuilding possible right away. Stern made the decision on behalf of the whole collective of owners with the mind of a businessman looking to make the team he owned (the Hornets) as enticing of a sell as possible as soon as possible. In that role, he made the right decision. If there's a point to complain about, it's the NBA deciding to take control of the Hornets franchise in the first place. A move like that is destined to lead to a conflict of interest like we saw in that trade situation. I think the NBA had good faith in its move to take control of the team; they wanted to keep the franchise in New Orleans. But if they want to save any similar franchises in the future, they will probably go about it a different way, so that the commissioner does not have to step in and make difficult business decisions on behalf of the team which lead angry fans to come up with angry conspiracy theories. Finally, both Chris Paul and the Lakers are probably lucky the original trade didn't go through. Kobe loved Derek Fisher so much because he wasn't much of a point guard, or player for that matter -- he knew how to come down the court, dump the ball into the triangle, and get out of the way. Chris Paul is a real point guard, who takes the ball down the court on every possession and creates for his teammates and himself. That would without a doubt conflict with Kobe's domineering ways, especially in Mike Brown's unimaginative offensive system. Though I suppose it would have been interesting to see Kobe call out Chris Paul for missing one shot in the fourth quarter after Kobe went one for a dozen on a fourth quarter full of terrible contested shots that lost his team the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) Maybe we should rename this thread "Boring Western Conference Discussion Corner". The WCF should be very exciting and competitive, even if you're just an EC fan. No doubt Thunder/Spurs will be interesting. My point was more that the West playoffs have been relatively boring and predictable up to this point while practically every East series has featured intensity and serious drama...yet for some reason everyone here has been ignoring all of them in favor of gabbing about the Lakers even after they've been eliminated. Edited May 24, 2012 by Big Wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) Well, Wade's turned into a cheap-shotting punk, from his nose-breaking hack on Kobe in the All-Star game to that petulant shove from behind he gave Darren Collison earlier in this series. LeBron's taken to dirty little undercover cheapies probably under Wade's tutelage. Not to mention he and Wade's tendency to really exaggerate on flops in a dirtier way than even Fisher ever dreamed of. Haslem's karate chop on Psycho T should have resulted in a longer suspension than it did, and the scrub who hacked the Pacer's scrub deserved at least as long as what Bynum got last year. I hate the Heat so much I think I'd rather even see the Celtics win, so I'll admit that I have a jaundiced eye toward the whole squad. Flopping is not dirty. You may not like it (I think it's starting to get out of hand), but it has nothing to do with clean/dirty play. The play in the All-Star Game was a hard foul on a layup that happened to catch Bryant in the nose. It doesn't look like an intentional shot to the face to me, but YMMV. The Collison play I'll allow was an obvious flagrant, but again...I can't really evaluate it as "cheap" it while ignoring the larger context of very physical play that's been going on this whole series by both teams. The only way to justify Haslem receiving a harsher punishment than Hansbrough is if you take the position that retaliation shots by their nature deserve harsher punishment, regardless of the damage caused by the fouls in question. For once in my entire life, I agree with Skip Bayless. The Haslem foul was a glancing shot to the face and mostly caught Hansbrough's arm and shoulder. Hansbrough's foul caught Wade's head with both arms, even the one that was nowhere near the ball. So far you haven't named one specific cheap shot taken by LeBron James. The only controversial calls I've seen him involved in are entirely legal screens in the backcourt that the defensive players have only themselves to blame for blindly running into. Edited May 24, 2012 by Big Wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 The Hornets would have gotten Kevin Martin, Luis Scola, and Lamar Odom. It was fair compensation and a totally legitimate deal, and in the weakling East they'd have probably been a playoff team. Hasbrough was playing the ball and it ended up being a hard foul. Haslem went in with the intention of fouling Hansbrough across the head and no intention of going for the ball. Who gives a hard foul in the All-Star Game? Get her an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 And Kobe loves DFish because they won five championships together. "Not much of a player?" Fisher turned himself into a clutch shooter through sheer hard work and dedication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 In other news, Mike Woodson is about to sign on as Knicks coach. Can Isaiah be far behind? This team may not win another title ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Hasbrough was playing the ball and it ended up being a hard foul. Haslem went in with the intention of fouling Hansbrough across the head and no intention of going for the ball. Leave aside the way it's pretty much impossible to avoid getting close to the ball when hacking a shorter player who's driving. Just watch the replay and watch Hansbrough's off hand. No way that wasn't calculated. On the Haslem foul, Haslem's hands only ended up as far from the ball as they did because Hansbrough ended up changing his shot to a jump hook when he saw Haslem in his face. The only way to prevent a player from getting off a jump hook is to push his upper arm and shoulder - getting the ball when you are guarding that closely is virtually impossible, which is why I like to take lots of hook shots when playing against taller defenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bneuman Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 The Hornets would have gotten Kevin Martin, Luis Scola, and Lamar Odom. It was fair compensation and a totally legitimate deal, and in the weakling East they'd have probably been a playoff team. It was not a matter of "fair compensation", it was a matter of what would be a wise deal for a team looking to start rebuilding right now. If you are looking to start rebuilding, you do not want to acquire expensive mid-tier veterans with years left on their contract. At best, they will make it possible for your team to be an 11-8 seed for a few years. As an owner, you pay out a lot of money for a mediocre non-contender that isn't bad enough to get good draft picks via the lottery and doesn't have enough salary cap room to acquire a big name. At the time of the trade, Kevin Martin had two years left (now one) at 12 million. Odom had two years (now one) at 8.5 million. Scola was on the second year of a 5 year $47 million contract. Why in god's name would a rebuilding club want to owe 4 years $40 million to Luis Scola and 2 years $25 million to Kevin Martin? With those two pieces + other players the Rockets made it all the way to a 10 seed. Dragic was a potentially nice piece. I don't think anybody expected him to play as well as he did in the last half of this year (and he will probably regress next year, but only after somebody overpays him). He's shown flashes of potential over the years and if he didn't work out his contract ended after this year anyway. However, Dragic was not as nice or promising a piece as Eric Gordon. Along with him the Hornets took Chris Kaman - $14 million, yeah, but off the salary sheet at the end of the season, and Aminu, who makes rookie money until 2015 and will be an RFA after that if he's any good. In both trades, the Hornets received a first round pick. Stern had no obligation to accept the Lakers trade, just because Scola + Odom + Martin + Dragic's fantasy basketball points added up to equal Chris Paul's fantasy basketball points. He thought Paul could yield a more strategically sound return for a rebuilding club, one that didn't saddle them with contracts that wouldn't take them anywhere. He was right. If you think that Stern had some obligation to accept the trade because it was the first one that had the veneer of acceptability, then you essentially believe the NBA had an obligation to sabotage the team it took ownership of (and make it a much less appealing purchase) so that the Lakers could make a misguided effort at putting together.a superteam. I don't think Derek Fisher acquired any special ability to make clutch shots as a result of winning championship rings, because I do not think a specialized "clutch" ability exists -- either you're a good shooter or you're not, and your FG% in the last three minutes of close games will not vary significantly from your FG% in the first 43 minutes -- and I don't think you get any special skills just by being on a team with good players. Even if you do want to overvalue Fisher's shooting, before he got really terrible at it last year, he still has a completely different skill set from Chris Paul. The point guards for the great triangle offense teams have never been especially great as point guards -- they're just decent-shooting guards who know how to bring the ball up, get it into the triangle, and make the open shot when necessary. For his career, Fisher averages 3 assists per game. This arrangement worked well because both Jordan and Kobe were/are domineering players who need to touch the ball a lot and don't want or need a Chris Paul or Steve Nash around to create offense for themselves and everyone else. Even if you think Fisher is absolutely the bees knees with his rings and clutchy veteran experience, he's still not a point guard, and we still have reason to seriously doubt that Kobe would adjust well and happily to an offensive system run by a creative point guard like Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Wouldn't be surprised if a fight breaks out in the Pacers / Heat series Especially if one team blows the other team out tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Wouldn't be surprised if a fight breaks out in the Pacers / Heat series Especially if one team blows the other team out tonight Not likely. If the Pacers blow out the Heat, there won't be a fight because both teams need all their players for Game 7. Something might happen if the Heat blow out the Pacers, but I doubt it because the NBA has brought in three hair-trigger refs for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 The Hornets would have gotten Kevin Martin, Luis Scola, and Lamar Odom. It was fair compensation and a totally legitimate deal, and in the weakling East they'd have probably been a playoff team. It was not a matter of "fair compensation", it was a matter of what would be a wise deal for a team looking to start rebuilding right now. If you are looking to start rebuilding, you do not want to acquire expensive mid-tier veterans with years left on their contract. At best, they will make it possible for your team to be an 11-8 seed for a few years. As an owner, you pay out a lot of money for a mediocre non-contender that isn't bad enough to get good draft picks via the lottery and doesn't have enough salary cap room to acquire a big name. At the time of the trade, Kevin Martin had two years left (now one) at 12 million. Odom had two years (now one) at 8.5 million. Scola was on the second year of a 5 year $47 million contract. Why in god's name would a rebuilding club want to owe 4 years $40 million to Luis Scola and 2 years $25 million to Kevin Martin? With those two pieces + other players the Rockets made it all the way to a 10 seed. Dragic was a potentially nice piece. I don't think anybody expected him to play as well as he did in the last half of this year (and he will probably regress next year, but only after somebody overpays him). He's shown flashes of potential over the years and if he didn't work out his contract ended after this year anyway. However, Dragic was not as nice or promising a piece as Eric Gordon. Along with him the Hornets took Chris Kaman - $14 million, yeah, but off the salary sheet at the end of the season, and Aminu, who makes rookie money until 2015 and will be an RFA after that if he's any good. In both trades, the Hornets received a first round pick. Stern had no obligation to accept the Lakers trade, just because Scola + Odom + Martin + Dragic's fantasy basketball points added up to equal Chris Paul's fantasy basketball points. He thought Paul could yield a more strategically sound return for a rebuilding club, one that didn't saddle them with contracts that wouldn't take them anywhere. He was right. If you think that Stern had some obligation to accept the trade because it was the first one that had the veneer of acceptability, then you essentially believe the NBA had an obligation to sabotage the team it took ownership of (and make it a much less appealing purchase) so that the Lakers could make a misguided effort at putting together.a superteam. I don't think Derek Fisher acquired any special ability to make clutch shots as a result of winning championship rings, because I do not think a specialized "clutch" ability exists -- either you're a good shooter or you're not, and your FG% in the last three minutes of close games will not vary significantly from your FG% in the first 43 minutes -- and I don't think you get any special skills just by being on a team with good players. Even if you do want to overvalue Fisher's shooting, before he got really terrible at it last year, he still has a completely different skill set from Chris Paul. The point guards for the great triangle offense teams have never been especially great as point guards -- they're just decent-shooting guards who know how to bring the ball up, get it into the triangle, and make the open shot when necessary. For his career, Fisher averages 3 assists per game. This arrangement worked well because both Jordan and Kobe were/are domineering players who need to touch the ball a lot and don't want or need a Chris Paul or Steve Nash around to create offense for themselves and everyone else. Even if you think Fisher is absolutely the bees knees with his rings and clutchy veteran experience, he's still not a point guard, and we still have reason to seriously doubt that Kobe would adjust well and happily to an offensive system run by a creative point guard like Paul. Two years is hardly a lot of time on a contract to worry about. Lamar Odom was the sixth man of the year. Kevin Martin is one of the better young point guards in the league. And Scola has become a versatile, savvy player and a hard-nosed competitor. The Hornets would have shed one point guard, gotten a point guard back, and added size. The Rockets are still reeling from losing Yao Ming, that's why they're willing to move half the roster to get Gasol. Ramon Sessions has played well for the Lakers and he's a better ball-handler than any point guard the Lakers have had for years. Phil is gone and took the triangle with him. Paul is both a great playmaker and a scorer, and I firmly believe he could have played well with Kobe. In fact, Kobe has had his most success in years when he hasn't had to pound the ball as much. Fisher sure made a lot of big buckets for the Lakers throughout his career, and is a great locker room leader. He's never been an elite offensive point guard by any measure, although I think one could argue he was an elite defender for a long while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejp626 Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 ...The Rockets are still reeling from losing Yao Ming, that's why they're willing to move half the roster to get Gasol. Don't really know about the rest of the message, but I do have to wonder about the Rockets "reeling," given that Yao Ming really was a subpar and very injury-prone center for most of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 well i guess the heat didn't need bosh or haslem to put away the pacers in indy! who's next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted May 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Miami does appear mentally now to take on the league. Needless to say it would help Miami greatly to go all the way this time, but there is opposition; a very hungry OKC and a very experienced and tough San Antonio. I love the NBA playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted May 25, 2012 Report Share Posted May 25, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted May 26, 2012 Report Share Posted May 26, 2012 Go Sixers!!!!! Beat the Celtics butt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave James Posted May 26, 2012 Report Share Posted May 26, 2012 I don't comment much on the NBA since I have little use for basketball, but when Dwight Howard says ( and with a straight face, mind you) that he had nothing to do with the firing of Stan Van Gundy in Orlando, it's so incredibly, asininely, ridiculously stupid, that only someone who's dumber than a sack of hammers would have the stones to say it. If they picked an all-pro team for stupid, he'd be on it every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILLYQ Posted May 27, 2012 Report Share Posted May 27, 2012 I don't comment much on the NBA since I have little use for basketball, but when Dwight Howard says ( and with a straight face, mind you) that he had nothing to do with the firing of Stan Van Gundy in Orlando, it's so incredibly, asininely, ridiculously stupid, that only someone who's dumber than a sack of hammers would have the stones to say it. If they picked an all-pro team for stupid, he'd be on it every year. Howard's 'Should I Stay or Should I go Now' shtick is tired. Orlando's best move might be to deal Howard(bad back + bad attitude), amnesty Turkeyglue and rebuild with some cap room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted May 27, 2012 Report Share Posted May 27, 2012 I'm losing interest....,,,,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted May 28, 2012 Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 Are the flipping Spurs gonna run the table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted May 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2012 (edited) I think we will see a different Thunder come Tuesday night. Thhis is the series that they really learn about closing out games. Edited May 28, 2012 by BruceW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 go HEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 WTF I thought the Spurs were too old to score 120 points a game I can't say Parker is running circles around Westbrook Russell scored almost 30 last night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted May 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 WTF I thought the Spurs were too old to score 120 points a game... Hey, they had me fooled also. Looks like the Spurs are serving notice!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 WTF I thought the Spurs were too old to... Dude - we've been hearing the "the Spurs are too old to _____" business for at least five years now. I've always believed it too. And I've always been proven wrong., Them Spurs have signed a deal with the devil, or something. They just keep going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.