Why does LeRoi Jones (aka Amiri Baraka) hate Hard bop?

[Teasing the Korean]

It seems like an overgeneralization to characterize hard bop as a simplified, stylized, gospel-infused groove-based version of bebop. While that kind of stuff certainly exists, there was plenty of inventive, burning, intense post-bop in the 50s and early 60s, often played by musicians who are generally characterized as "hard bop" players. Granted, not everyone is a genius like Mozart or Charlie Parker.

[Dan Gould]

Such as?

I'm curious because

1. I think the very basis of hard bop is the funky/rootsy/gospelly/blues element in the music. It doesn't overgeneralize, it defines the style.

2. I think of post-bop as music that made a decided break from bop, not music that still had clear roots in the style.

[JSngry]

When I used the word "irony" in relation to Monk, he told me, with great hostility, that irony was "a white person's concept."

I did not stay for long.

Yeah, I don't blame you for leaving. He sounds moronic.

See, I would have just asked him what he meant by that, that I didn't understand what he meant, please elaborate because I want to understand.

Either he was gamin', in which case you've called him on it, or else he really did have an angle that he could elaborate on, in which case you do gain insight. The angle might still be bullshit, but we all got bullshit, ya' know?

Either way, I just don't leave it hanging like that. I don't like leaving stuff like that alone, not unless I'm running late for something else, or something like that, or if it's my wife looking to set a trap.

FWIW, I could see "irony" as being one manifestation of "tricksterism" You could go there. Or you could just be looking to psyche a mf out. But you never know for sure until you push it.

[Larry Kart]

When I used the word "irony" in relation to Monk, he told me, with great hostility, that irony was "a white person's concept."

I did not stay for long.

Yeah, I don't blame you for leaving. He sounds moronic.

See, I would have just asked him what he meant by that, that I didn't understand what he meant, please elaborate because I want to understand.

Either he was gamin', in which case you've called him on it, or else he really did have an angle that he could elaborate on, in which case you do gain insight. The angle might still be bullshit, but we all got bullshit, ya' know?

Either way, I just don't leave it hanging like that. I don't like leaving stuff like that alone, not unless I'm running late for something else, or something like that, or if it's my wife looking to set a trap.

FWIW, I could see "irony" as being one manifestation of "tricksterism" You could go there. Or you could just be looking to psyche a mf out. But you never know for sure until you push it.

He probably would have replied -- a la Louis Armstrong (or was it Fats Waller?) -- "If you have to ask, you'll never know."

[AllenLowe]

well, what he was getting at was that, in his opinion, Monk's treatment of standards was a way of doing the dozens - that Monk held these tunes in contempt. I said I disagreed, I felt Monk had great affection for those tunes, but used some musical irony for distancing effect - and then he told me that irony was a white thing, not a black thing,

[JSngry]

Still trying to figure out who this trombonist is...but I'm reminded that Baraka (then Jones) wrote much the same thing about Cecil Taylor's Candid recording of "This Nearly Was Mine" to which Joe Goldberg quoted Cecil as replying, "Doesn't that fool know that I recorded that song because I like it?", or words very similar.

And still I would have called him on that, maybe by asking him if he was being ironic in saying that.

I mean, I've had (as many of us have had) plenty of conversations where there was a period of bluffing/testing/whatever going on, just to see who it is we're really dealing with...sometimes (often, in fact), once the games are over, it gets good. But sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it never even gets there.

Oh well...

[Chuck Nessa]

Pretty sure it is my friend George.

[spangalang]

I'm with Chuck here... sometimes annoyed, sometimes chuckling, twice laughing out loud while finally catching up.

Guess I really got to read the two Jones books, but there's plenty of stuff I should finally read and not enough time, so...

Mr. spang, that list offered by Leeway is definitely a good one - obviously it doesn't end there, not by a long shot. I'd throw in Barry Guy, Irene Schweizer, Henry Threadgill, Leo Smith and Roscoe Mitchell, to just name a few more.

I totally love this thread, although at times I have wondered if my questions are considered too pedantic for even jazz fans...

I will check out the additional recommendations ASAP... oh and by the way, it's Ms. spang.

[JSngry]

When I used the word "irony" in relation to Monk, he told me, with great hostility, that irony was "a white person's concept."

I did not stay for long.

Yeah, I don't blame you for leaving. He sounds moronic.

See, I would have just asked him what he meant by that, that I didn't understand what he meant, please elaborate because I want to understand.

Either he was gamin', in which case you've called him on it, or else he really did have an angle that he could elaborate on, in which case you do gain insight. The angle might still be bullshit, but we all got bullshit, ya' know?

Either way, I just don't leave it hanging like that. I don't like leaving stuff like that alone, not unless I'm running late for something else, or something like that, or if it's my wife looking to set a trap.

FWIW, I could see "irony" as being one manifestation of "tricksterism" You could go there. Or you could just be looking to psyche a mf out. But you never know for sure until you push it.

He probably would have replied -- a la Louis Armstrong (or was it Fats Waller?) -- "If you have to ask, you'll never know."

Oh, if you wanted to really push it, you could counter with, "Look motherfucker, I know what I mean, I'm white, remember, I get irony. Hell, my people apparently invented it. I want to know what you mean. Do black folks not ever use irony? Really? Explain, please! If you can't explain, you don't know!"

Of course, I would be smiling all the while...

And seriously, I can see, sorta, how he might have been coming that "irony" was too facile a description to describe Monk's relation to the material. The word carries with it a certain urbane, bow-tied finiteness, I think. Or it once did. Now it's reserved for too-cool cynical hipsters. Either way,, a "white" image. But still...the concept is a lot bigger than the word, and besides, the notion that Monk hated all standards is just waywack too simplewrong.

People who try to liberate by confinement are getting it wrong in pretty much every way.

Pretty sure it is my friend George.

Oh, and George Lewis never uses irony, eh?

at times I have wondered if my questions are considered too pedantic for even jazz fans...

Trust me - nothing is too pedantic for jazz fans.

[spangalang]

Trust me - nothing is too pedantic for jazz fans.

Well then I've found my people. : )

Edited February 29, 2012 by spangalang

[AllenLowe]

actually, I've never met (either) George Lewis. Big Hint: he had the same last name as I have.

[JSngry]

Had to look it up. Bill Lowe. Can't say that the name stands out.

[Larry Kart]

Relieved to know it's not George Lewis.

[king ubu]

I will check out the additional recommendations ASAP... oh and by the way, it's Ms. spang.

Oops, sorry for that! We don't see to many ladies around here - belated welcome, and keep on asking these pedantic questions, please, the discussion you stirred here is very interesting, indeed!

[cih]

Talking of pedantic - about 1 minute 50 seconds into Pinetop Smith's version of 'Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out', he speaks the line "as soon as you get back on your feet, lots of friends you sure can meet" in a particularly ironic way. Many a time I've allowed myself a wry, knowing smile as I recognised the contradictory attitude in his doleful delivery, as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion. Indeed, blues is dripping with Irony I believe.

"Mama get your hatchet : kill the fly on your baby's head"

some are born ironic, some achieve ironic, and others have ironic thrust upon them

[AllenLowe]

Bill Lowe worked with Threadgill for a while, and various other bands, though his prime career has been academic.

[Tom Storer]

He's been playing in Taylor Ho Bynum's group, right alongside some ironic white people!

Learn more about him here.

And wasn't it he who just had a well-received large ensemble record sometime in the past year or so? Or was that another tuba/bass-trombone specialist?

[AllenLowe]

I don't know -

[relyles]

He's been playing in Taylor Ho Bynum's group, right alongside some ironic white people!

Learn more about him here.

And wasn't it he who just had a well-received large ensemble record sometime in the past year or so? Or was that another tuba/bass-trombone specialist?

Could you be thinking of Joseph Daley's Earth Tones Ensemble recording, Seven Deadly Sins?

[Tom Storer]

He's been playing in Taylor Ho Bynum's group, right alongside some ironic white people!

Learn more about him here.

And wasn't it he who just had a well-received large ensemble record sometime in the past year or so? Or was that another tuba/bass-trombone specialist?

Could you be thinking of Joseph Daley's Earth Tones Ensemble recording, Seven Deadly Sins?

That's the one! No wonder I couldn't find it.

[Pete C]

Baraka was always a blowhard who never let aesthetics stand in the way of his political agendas. His "disappointment" with Wayne Shorter, in the postscript to his profile in Black Music is one good example of his cluelessness.

[JSngry]

I think most people have agenda about most things.

[danasgoodstuff]

I think most people have agenda about most things.

Only if they want to get something done! Lots of people don't about lots of things but they rarely have much impact on those things.

[JSngry]

I think their agenda is to just not be bothered.

[Noj]

It sounds to me like Baraka has agenda'd himself right out of enjoying music for how it sounds. Better him than me.