Why does LeRoi Jones (aka Amiri Baraka) hate Hard bop?

[fasstrack]

Now I carefully reread Larry's post and it had to be the same person, Burton Greene. It doesn't help that I don't know anything about either's music. Never touch the stuff-but that doesn't give me the right to misqoute and do sloppy research. That privilege belongs to bottom feeders like Howard Mandel-who actually gets paid and is given awards for his ca-ca. (his notes for David X. Young's Jazz Loft are riddled w/arrogantly served innacuracies and I find him generally lame, full of shit, and yet another climber on the backs of musicians and jazz. An airhead jazz Matt Lauer) That's his readers' misfortune though. I'm not a journalist by trade, but I care about the veracity of what appears in print under my name. So I apologize for an honest mistake.

[robertoart]

I suspect Baraka's complaint was a teleological one rather than a qualitative one.

Even if it wasn't, kudos for working the word into the conversation!

Well I kinda think it was/is. About a music moving towards it's inevitable point of Afro-centric self determination.

It's a big grown up word that cuts through a lot of crap.

It's a big word that neatly encapsulates a lot of crap.

Teleological perfectly sums up what I believe Baraka and self determination was/is about and why he may have wanted to look beyond hard bop even if he loved the music. Argue against it if you feel it is a misguided assertion on my behalf.

[robertoart]

I had a chuckle today in Loren Schoenberg's National Jazz Museum. I live close and it's a nice oasis. They have a nice library. I've been reading Jazz Jews by Mike Gerber (I highly recommend it). There's an interview with Ran Blake, who responded amusingly to Baraka's slamming him in a review in, I think, Black Music. Baraka was saying how Blake must've crashed, didn't deserve the gig, etc. After correcting the record (he was invited by Marion Brown, the piano he had 'banged on' had mostly broken keys, etc.) he cleaned Baraka's clock: (I'm paraphrasing) 'he came from a well-to-do New England family... So he breaks up with his Jewish wife, a painter, and presto turns up in Newark with the shades and Dashiki-like he was always there and about that. Called him a phoney in print! Coda: I read that Blake and Baraka and their wives spent some pleasant time in Amsterdam. Blake lives there and was showing them the sights. Finally the article was brought up. 'Don't take it personally. It was just Black Nationalism'!!

I think this is being disingenuous to Baraka's identity. So what if he 'emerged' at a certain point in a Dashiki and shades. Does that make him less an authentic African American than himself?

[Larry Kart]

I originally wrote in parenths that it might've Burton Greene, but had to edit for space using the limited cell phone. I should have left them in. Damn. The Amsterdam thing threw me too. Which is the one who showed Baraka Amsterdam (recounted in my last 2 sentences)? I'm totally confused now-and embarrassed b/c I thought it was a funny story. BTW Burton Greene is on the cover of Jazz Jews and looks so much like Ronnie Cuber it's uncanny.

It's Greene in both stories. He's the subject of Jones' "The Burton Greene Affair" and then the guy who encounters Baraka decades later in Amsterdam, brings up the piece after they've had a pleasant encounter and is told "It was all Black Nationalism."

Not an excuse I would have accepted, I think, not without further explanation. In particular, I would want to know how many more of Baraka's rhetorically fierce essays/poems, etc. over the years does he now disavow and/or rationalize along "It seemed like the thing to say at the time" lines. We all change our minds about stuff, but there's a difference I think between doing that on a more or less internal basis and doing it (or saying that one does/did it) in a "it seems like the thing to say" manner. In any case, if Baraka were to take that "aw shucks, don't get your underwear in a knot over what I said" tack, I would say that I don't believe him -- the passionate, often acerbic tone of his work (and not only that) speaks of an internal consistency.

[Pete C]

Burton Greene lived in Amsterdam for many years.

[fasstrack]

I think both Baraka and Crouch, the poles apart politically, know stirring the pots and acting menacing in print or person is good for business. Never met Baraka but Stanley's a very decent guy. Knows where his bread's buttered so he's invested in 'did you hear Stanley punched so-and-so'. As far as his writing I believe he means it. We've debated things he espoused in The Sell-out of Miles Davis and he held his ground, citing interviews w/ guys in the band who said Miles did it for the money. I reread the piece and I do agree Miles cheapened himself w/an embarrassing theatricality. But I wish he'd stop 'showing off' with clumsy, ham-handed prose like 'he swung his inky tail off (I guess he takes it for 'clever'). And 'negro' every 5 words. Stanley, they won't throw out of the Black Conservative Mensa Club for saying ass, black, or black ass... Did Stanley work to de-throne Miles to clear the way for the Wynton coronation? Only their hairdressers know for sure. I like Stanley and enjoy his Daily News pieces.

[fasstrack]

Freelancer: I didn't write the dashiki comment-only laughed at it. Baraka lives his own life and he's entitled. Obviously he's super intelligent and capable of soul-searching. But speaking of Dashikis, Blacks and Jews-you haven't seen nothin' till you've seen Bob Mover (don't get ideas. He's an old and dear friend) show up at Sweet Basil to play with the Kenny Barron Trio in paisley Dashiki and Jew-fro. Hey, it was the 70s! Reminds me of when Sonny Fortune hosted a show at WBAI, looked his face on an album cover and said 'wow, look at those long sideburns! I was definitely trying to figure it out'

[robertoart]

Freelancer: I didn't write the dashiki comment-only laughed at it. Baraka lives his own life and he's entitled. Obviously he's super intelligent and capable of soul-searching. But speaking of Dashikis, Blacks and Jews-you haven't seen nothin' till you've seen Bob Mover (don't get ideas. He's an old and dear friend) show up at Sweet Basil to play with the Kenny Barron Trio in paisley Dashiki and Jew-fro. Hey, it was the 70s! Reminds me of when Sonny Fortune hosted a show at WBAI, looked his face on an album cover and said 'wow, look at those long sideburns! I was definitely trying to figure it out'

Well hopefully Keith Jarrett is not an old and dear friend of yours - because up until a year ago I assumed he was a fair skinned African American like Kenny Burrell. Did Jarrett ever don African clothes to go with his fro?

[Pete C]

until a year ago I assumed he was a fair skinned African American

That's the funny thing about Franco-Hungarian-Americans.

[JSngry]

Well, one of the funny things...

[Pete C]

Yes, their tendency to grunt like abused animals is another one.

[JSngry]

And their use of pimento-stuffed green olives in applesauce...never have figured that one out.

But to each their own!

[robertoart]

Well I wasn't the only one. quoted from a KJ interview...

TR: When I was fourteen or fifteen, I bought a few of your records. When I saw your picture I thought, "I wonder if this guy's white or black."

KJ: Ornette asked me that way back in the 60s.

TR: Was there any intention to your appearance? Did you feel you had to fit in with a certain set of people?

KJ: No. It's how I wanted to look but, I didn't have my hair done, it just grows like that! I had a feeling of closeness to the world that I was a part of, and that world was in a large part black. I think it was just an environmental thing. But I had a hell of a time convincing a few people that I wasn't black. There was one guy who would have gone and done research into my family tree if he had the money to do it. He didn't want it to be true that I was white. {Laughs}

TR: Why not?

KJ: Well I shouldn't be able to do that (play jazz) or something like that. Ornette said -- it was more as a joke -- "You sure you're not black, man?" I said, "Yeah. I'm sure." He said, "I don't know." {Laughs}

quoted from here

My link

[Pete C]

At least one person around here wasn't fooled. From the DeJohnette thread:

HOWEVER, I had occasion last night to listen to three hours of live 'peak' Jarrett ('American Quartet') on wkcr.org presented by the estimable Mitch Goldman and, in answer to the age old question, is it worth suffering Jarrrett (and, to a lesser extent, suffering Motian also) to hear the great Dewey Redman, sorry to say--

It. Is. Not. Even. Close.

Jarrett is so goddamn insipid-- cutesy-pie gospel ostinato bullshit with totally misplaced ersatz 'classical' tone production (no wonder his later Shostakovich, Bach and Mozart are laughable... I guess if you're an ofay scared of gospel per se and 'jazz' fan ig'nant of or antagonistic to 'long-hair' music this was a breath of fresh something but for the rest of us, it's utter GARABGE and ** never ** got better, no matter one's po' mouth rationalization that well, its success let Manfred do lots of other things...

[robertoart]

At least one person around here wasn't fooled. From the DeJohnette thread:

HOWEVER, I had occasion last night to listen to three hours of live 'peak' Jarrett ('American Quartet') on wkcr.org presented by the estimable Mitch Goldman and, in answer to the age old question, is it worth suffering Jarrrett (and, to a lesser extent, suffering Motian also) to hear the great Dewey Redman, sorry to say--

It. Is. Not. Even. Close.

Jarrett is so goddamn insipid-- cutesy-pie gospel ostinato bullshit with totally misplaced ersatz 'classical' tone production (no wonder his later Shostakovich, Bach and Mozart are laughable... I guess if you're an ofay scared of gospel per se and 'jazz' fan ig'nant of or antagonistic to 'long-hair' music this was a breath of fresh something but for the rest of us, it's utter GARABGE and ** never ** got better, no matter one's po' mouth rationalization that well, its success let Manfred do lots of other things...

See, this post makes sense to me. And 'suffering Motion' too

[JSngry]

Well I wasn't the only one.

Actually, no you weren't. There was a lot of de facto assumption back in the day that he was African-American, especially when he had that big fro with Miles. It was never discussed or wondered about, it was just assumed.

And then, as now, life went on.

[fasstrack]

I don't think KJ's a good and dear friend of anyone but KJ. I really don't give a rat's ass-joking aside-of what people choose to look like. That's personal and only the outer layer. The only important thing is how they treat others. Everything else is as inconsequential as the wardrobe.

[danasgoodstuff]

I suspect Baraka's complaint was a teleological one rather than a qualitative one.

Even if it wasn't, kudos for working the word into the conversation!

Well I kinda think it was/is. About a music moving towards it's inevitable point of Afro-centric self determination.

It's a big grown up word that cuts through a lot of crap.

It's a big word that neatly encapsulates a lot of crap.

Teleological perfectly sums up what I believe Baraka and self determination was/is about and why he may have wanted to look beyond hard bop even if he loved the music. Argue against it if you feel it is a misguided assertion on my behalf.

No, I think you're totally correct in your thinking 'bout why Baraka would dis hard bop, I just think that teleological arguements are bs...

Edited August 9, 2012 by danasgoodstuff

[fasstrack]

That MomsMobley guy, him mo like Keith Jarrett much. Wow. I hope my work pleases him a little more if encountered, as the water poured on poor Keith gave even me ass scald. Gee, I think I coined a phrase there-an absolutely USELESS phrase...

[six string]

Well I found this thread yesterday and it's taken me until today to finish it so excuse me if my comments here are a digression to where the thread is now but I still wanted to say it. Feel free to ignore it as one sees fit.

People who live on the edge whether they are writers, musicians or speakers will almost always shake up the status quo. They have to by definition. It’s not surprising that this discussion has created a lot of spirited discourse and it’s a healthy thing when it doesn’t revert to name calling or questioning other’s people’s opinions in a non-productive way. As the old saying goes, there are few facts here, mostly opinions. Besides the fact that history has usually shown that by definition, the status quo is not going to change radically over a short period of time so it’s hard to imagine a world of jazz where the general consensus changes rapidly, say, every three to five years. It’s never done that and never will. One of the redeeming qualities of hardbop imo is it’s danceability for the most part. One can tap their foot or their glass to the rhythm during a performance and follow along with the changes. I think the majority of jazz fans are of that nature. There will always be those pushing the boundaries and that’s a good thing. It’s part of what defines jazz less we forget. To think though that the music will change in leaps or bounds in short periods of time outside of a smaller group is probably unrealistic. Besides, once enough people join the club there will be that percentage of people who will claim that it’s no longer happening and they have to go out and search for something new. Jazz needs those pioneers. Without them the music will necrose as it arguably has in recent decades. That’s not to say that there still aren’t viable examples of hardbop, bebop or swing out there today. Look at all the resistance to hip hop moving into jazz. The reactions are not dissimilar to those lobbed upon free jazz when it appeared.

[Pete C]

Without them the music will necrose

That's one way of putting it.

[fasstrack]

Well I found this thread yesterday and it's taken me until today to finish it so excuse me if my comments here are a digression to where the thread is now but I still wanted to say it. Feel free to ignore it as one sees fit.

People who live on the edge whether they are writers, musicians or speakers will almost always shake up the status quo. They have to by definition. It’s not surprising that this discussion has created a lot of spirited discourse and it’s a healthy thing when it doesn’t revert to name calling or questioning other’s people’s opinions in a non-productive way. As the old saying goes, there are few facts here, mostly opinions. Besides the fact that history has usually shown that by definition, the status quo is not going to change radically over a short period of time so it’s hard to imagine a world of jazz where the general consensus changes rapidly, say, every three to five years. It’s never done that and never will. One of the redeeming qualities of hardbop imo is it’s danceability for the most part. One can tap their foot or their glass to the rhythm during a performance and follow along with the changes. I think the majority of jazz fans are of that nature. There will always be those pushing the boundaries and that’s a good thing. It’s part of what defines jazz less we forget. To think though that the music will change in leaps or bounds in short periods of time outside of a smaller group is probably unrealistic. Besides, once enough people join the club there will be that percentage of people who will claim that it’s no longer happening and they have to go out and search for something new. Jazz needs those pioneers. Without them the music will necrose as it arguably has in recent decades. That’s not to say that there still aren’t viable examples of hardbop, bebop or swing out there today. Look at all the resistance to hip hop moving into jazz. The reactions are not dissimilar to those lobbed upon free jazz when it appeared.

If you're inferring that Baraka is some sort of edgy innovator somehow on a par with great jazz musicians or other artists, sorry but no cigar from me. I'd say he's very bright and likes to call attention to himself--even more than his views---by intentionally instigating. I'm not sure what good that does, especially in comparison to music which, when done right, is a healer. I'm not sure Baraka's motivation is to get people together. If he were a player to me he'd be stuck in 'self-expression mode', which to mean means talented but missing the point. It's a selfish kind of art that pales very fast---just my opinion. Still he's a good, thought-provoking writer I always enjoyed---best taken with a grain of salt.

[ElginThompson]

Fell across this blog, which attempts to review various Mosaic reissues. In this case, a review of Cartler/Bradford set takes the view that the new thing replacing hard bop (jealous ensues, yada yada, yada). Thought it was related to the discussion on this thread.

Mosaic Reviews: John Carter and Bobby Bradford

[Face of the Bass]

Fell across this blog, which attempts to review various Mosaic reissues. In this case, a review of Cartler/Bradford set takes the view that the new thing replacing hard bop (jealous ensues, yada yada, yada). Thought it was related to the discussion on this thread.

Mosaic Reviews: John Carter and Bobby Bradford

Huh, I wrote that almost two years ago. Not sure if my opinion still holds. I do think, though, that hard bop as a genre was vital to jazz music until the early 1960s, by which point it was largely played out and overly formulaic. Of course, a lot of free jazz is also overly formulaic these days as well. Eventually everything gets played out.

[ElginThompson]

Fell across this blog, which attempts to review various Mosaic reissues. In this case, a review of Cartler/Bradford set takes the view that the new thing replacing hard bop (jealous ensues, yada yada, yada). Thought it was related to the discussion on this thread.

Mosaic Reviews: John Carter and Bobby Bradford

Huh, I wrote that almost two years ago. Not sure if my opinion still holds. I do think, though, that hard bop as a genre was vital to jazz music until the early 1960s, by which point it was largely played out and overly formulaic. Of course, a lot of free jazz is also overly formulaic these days as well. Eventually everything gets played out.

Ha! I assumed someone from this forum did. :-)