Evan Parker and Roscoe Mitchell

[JETman]

ok, well I grew up right near you. same land, same world

[.:.impossible]

At least you two could agree that a Lester Bowie clip of The Great Pretender, also released on ECM, was perfectly placed within this thread. You could do so in a private message even.

[Leeway]

At least you two could agree that a Lester Bowie clip of The Great Pretender, also released on ECM, was perfectly placed within this thread. You could do so in a private message even.

If you have another clip, feel free to post it! Seems as good a time as any

[king ubu]

So ultimately this thread boils down to "marxism is irony", right?

[JETman]

So ultimately this thread boils down to "marxism is irony", right?

Although that is true in every practical sense (when has marxism in any of its bastardized forms ever worked, after all?), this is really besides the point.

The way I read it, the thread boils down to two amazingly wonderful artists who couldn't possibly make a bum record, being relegated to making ones because of the general dumbing down of the art form desired by a German producer with a Napoleon complex.

[clifford_thornton]

Whoa.

[Clunky]

currently enjoying Tim Berne - Snake Oil - ECM,

There's no selling out on this one.

[JETman]

Whoa.

Yes, time to get real!

[JSngry]

Yeah, what's a German cat doing with a Napoleon complex?

[mjazzg]

currently enjoying Tim Berne - Snake Oil - ECM,

There's no selling out on this one.

glad to hear that. Currently anticipating imminent purchase and March gig

[Clunky]

currently enjoying Tim Berne - Snake Oil - ECM,

There's no selling out on this one.

glad to hear that. Currently anticipating imminent purchase and March gig

my interest in this was stimulated by the Jazzwise article , sadly no chance of me catching their visit. Got this today in Fopp.

[king ubu]

Yeah, what's a German cat doing with a Napoleon complex?

probably working towards the foundation of the fifth reich...

or wait, we're only at number four?

[JSngry]

Who's counting?

[David Ayers]

currently enjoying Tim Berne - Snake Oil - ECM,

There's no selling out on this one.

I was going to start a new thread on that one then thought better of it. I thought maybe if I pretended it was on Blue Note...

I seriously wish people didn't try to suppress discussion of ANY music from this label - even when it is by artists they supposedly support.

The pair of records I was discussing are among the very few I have heard in recent years that are trying to do anything a bit different in the jazz uh continuum.

[Face of the Bass]

I seriously wish people didn't try to suppress discussion of ANY music from this label - even when it is by artists they supposedly support.

Who here is trying to "suppress" discussion?

[mjazzg]

I'm not sure there's been any overt suppresion but there really has been a lot of digression (not in itself a bad thing). Witness the number of posts that actually address the music on the recordings in the original post..

I understand the sentiment of frustration that comes from attempting to generate a discussion about two significant artists and ending up with a discussion about a record label instead. That frustration may well lead to a decision not to start a thread about the music of another artist on the same label. How many posts in the new thread before someone chooses to comment on the label rather than the release?

It's akin to the "how long before the grunting's mentioned" game in a Keith Jarrett thread, I, of course, have added to the digression with this post but excuse myself a little as I've posted with my reactions to Parker and Mitchell's recordings somewhere in the dark reaches of this thread

[Face of the Bass]

Alright then, my contribution to the question is that I find Parker's output on ECM to be fairly dull. I have a great deal of interest in electro-acoustic improvisation, but in my opinion his efforts in that direction have not been particularly interesting.

[David Ayers]

Well, Boustrophedon is not electro-acoustic. Moment's Energy, which admittedly did get mentioned and is electro-acoustic, is actually musically interesting and not just atmospherics (though, as often in this genre, pulse is hard to come by...).

[mjazzg]

Just listening to Boustrophedon for a second time since this thread brought it back to my attention.

what's struck me this time is how the dynamic arc of the piece is not dissimilar to that I've heard Parker and colleagues create in trio settings. Obviously the larger forces deployed create a fuller and more 'orchestral' sound but the ebb and flow seems familiar The use of strings in this piece definitely call to mind Barry Guy's individual contributions in the trio.

The structure of the consecutive pairings did at first lead me to hear this as a disconnected piece without an overall logic but I'm hearing something different now. As others have noted familiarisation may breed content on this one.

[mjazzg]

Alright then, my contribution to the question is that I find Parker's output on ECM to be fairly dull. I have a great deal of interest in electro-acoustic improvisation, but in my opinion his efforts in that direction have not been particularly interesting.

Certainly Parker on ECM isn't only electro-acoustic - ref. David Ayers point above and also his trio recordings with Bley. Not forgetting that storming solo on the first track of Wheeler's Around 6 and other contributions to KW's works on the label.

Interesting, I wonder what it is that makes you feel that about these electro-acoustic recordings? Do you have similar feelings about other EA recordings of his, I'm thinking PSI releases? do you find them less interesting in comparison to other EA composers/improvisors or in comparison to othe Evan Parker ensembles?

I'm no expert in this field and I found that my initial exposure to Parker's EA ensemble opened a route into a new type of music - so maybe I've a soft spot for them. Certainly the live performance by this ensemble I witnessed was a musically and almost physically extraordinary experience.

[Face of the Bass]

Alright then, my contribution to the question is that I find Parker's output on ECM to be fairly dull. I have a great deal of interest in electro-acoustic improvisation, but in my opinion his efforts in that direction have not been particularly interesting.

Certainly Parker on ECM isn't only electro-acoustic - ref. David Ayers point above and also his trio recordings with Bley. Not forgetting that storming solo on the first track of Wheeler's Around 6 and other contributions to KW's works on the label.

Interesting, I wonder what it is that makes you feel that about these electro-acoustic recordings? Do you have similar feelings about other EA recordings of his, I'm thinking PSI releases? do you find them less interesting in comparison to other EA composers/improvisors or in comparison to othe Evan Parker ensembles?

I'm no expert in this field and I found that my initial exposure to Parker's EA ensemble opened a route into a new type of music - so maybe I've a soft spot for them. Certainly the live performance by this ensemble I witnessed was a musically and almost physically extraordinary experience.

Maybe it is because I came into electro-acoustic music at the deep end of the swimming pool--AMM, Keith Rowe/Toshi Nakamura, Sachiko M, all the stuff on Erstwhile and other labels. Then later I listened to the Evan Parker recordings. They just didn't match my expectations. Maybe it's just that the label (Electro Acoustic Ensemble) is all wrong.

[JETman]

or maybe "Mr. Circular Breathing" is all wrong!

[mjazzg]

Alright then, my contribution to the question is that I find Parker's output on ECM to be fairly dull. I have a great deal of interest in electro-acoustic improvisation, but in my opinion his efforts in that direction have not been particularly interesting.

Certainly Parker on ECM isn't only electro-acoustic - ref. David Ayers point above and also his trio recordings with Bley. Not forgetting that storming solo on the first track of Wheeler's Around 6 and other contributions to KW's works on the label.

Interesting, I wonder what it is that makes you feel that about these electro-acoustic recordings? Do you have similar feelings about other EA recordings of his, I'm thinking PSI releases? do you find them less interesting in comparison to other EA composers/improvisors or in comparison to othe Evan Parker ensembles?

I'm no expert in this field and I found that my initial exposure to Parker's EA ensemble opened a route into a new type of music - so maybe I've a soft spot for them. Certainly the live performance by this ensemble I witnessed was a musically and almost physically extraordinary experience.

Maybe it is because I came into electro-acoustic music at the deep end of the swimming pool--AMM, Keith Rowe/Toshi Nakamura, Sachiko M, all the stuff on Erstwhile and other labels. Then later I listened to the Evan Parker recordings. They just didn't match my expectations. Maybe it's just that the label (Electro Acoustic Ensemble) is all wrong.

That's interesting as it's the opposite journey to mine. I find myself just paddling in the shallow end of that swimming pool with some AMM but certainly not swimming yet. I can see how our two journeys would lead to very different responses to the same Ensemble.

[clifford_thornton]

Alright then, my contribution to the question is that I find Parker's output on ECM to be fairly dull. I have a great deal of interest in electro-acoustic improvisation, but in my opinion his efforts in that direction have not been particularly interesting.

Certainly Parker on ECM isn't only electro-acoustic - ref. David Ayers point above and also his trio recordings with Bley. Not forgetting that storming solo on the first track of Wheeler's Around 6 and other contributions to KW's works on the label.

Interesting, I wonder what it is that makes you feel that about these electro-acoustic recordings? Do you have similar feelings about other EA recordings of his, I'm thinking PSI releases? do you find them less interesting in comparison to other EA composers/improvisors or in comparison to othe Evan Parker ensembles?

I'm no expert in this field and I found that my initial exposure to Parker's EA ensemble opened a route into a new type of music - so maybe I've a soft spot for them. Certainly the live performance by this ensemble I witnessed was a musically and almost physically extraordinary experience.

Maybe it is because I came into electro-acoustic music at the deep end of the swimming pool--AMM, Keith Rowe/Toshi Nakamura, Sachiko M, all the stuff on Erstwhile and other labels. Then later I listened to the Evan Parker recordings. They just didn't match my expectations. Maybe it's just that the label (Electro Acoustic Ensemble) is all wrong.

Well, consider that electro-acoustic improvisation really started in the late '60s with AMM, the New Music Ensemble, David Behrman's work, Musica Elettronica Viva, Gentle Fire ... some of that stuff is blindingly harsh music, other aspects more contemplative, and I think that some of the best examples really retain the spirit of improvisational risk, throwing shit at the wall and it just may not stick. Evan Parker was working with Hugh Davies (Gentle Fire) around the turn of the 70s, and Paul Lytton also brought an electronically-expanded approach to sound and rhythm in the duo that they had through the '70s and '80s. Parker's been doing Electro-Acoustic music his way for 40 years, and it may not be as rarefied an approach as one encounters on Erstwhile discs, but it's in keeping with the sense of risk and humor that pervaded the earlier work.

[Face of the Bass]

Alright then, my contribution to the question is that I find Parker's output on ECM to be fairly dull. I have a great deal of interest in electro-acoustic improvisation, but in my opinion his efforts in that direction have not been particularly interesting.

Certainly Parker on ECM isn't only electro-acoustic - ref. David Ayers point above and also his trio recordings with Bley. Not forgetting that storming solo on the first track of Wheeler's Around 6 and other contributions to KW's works on the label.

Interesting, I wonder what it is that makes you feel that about these electro-acoustic recordings? Do you have similar feelings about other EA recordings of his, I'm thinking PSI releases? do you find them less interesting in comparison to other EA composers/improvisors or in comparison to othe Evan Parker ensembles?

I'm no expert in this field and I found that my initial exposure to Parker's EA ensemble opened a route into a new type of music - so maybe I've a soft spot for them. Certainly the live performance by this ensemble I witnessed was a musically and almost physically extraordinary experience.

Maybe it is because I came into electro-acoustic music at the deep end of the swimming pool--AMM, Keith Rowe/Toshi Nakamura, Sachiko M, all the stuff on Erstwhile and other labels. Then later I listened to the Evan Parker recordings. They just didn't match my expectations. Maybe it's just that the label (Electro Acoustic Ensemble) is all wrong.

Well, consider that electro-acoustic improvisation really started in the late '60s with AMM, the New Music Ensemble, David Behrman's work, Musica Elettronica Viva, Gentle Fire ... some of that stuff is blindingly harsh music, other aspects more contemplative, and I think that some of the best examples really retain the spirit of improvisational risk, throwing shit at the wall and it just may not stick. Evan Parker was working with Hugh Davies (Gentle Fire) around the turn of the 70s, and Paul Lytton also brought an electronically-expanded approach to sound and rhythm in the duo that they had through the '70s and '80s. Parker's been doing Electro-Acoustic music his way for 40 years, and it may not be as rarefied an approach as one encounters on Erstwhile discs, but it's in keeping with the sense of risk and humor that pervaded the earlier work.

I don't know. I'm a huge fan of Evan Parker generally, I love the stuff he's done going back to the 1960s right up to the present. The Parker-Guy-Lytton combination might be my favorite trio in improvised music. By comparison, the electro-acoustic stuff just fell flat for my ears. I guess I like my EAI a little bit harsher.