Bob Brookmeyer R.I.P.

[king ubu]

"Hot Buttered Noodling"? That goes straight to the favorite album titles list, along with "Never Pat a Burning Dog" (as if we didn't know THAT!)

[BillF]

"Hot Buttered Noodling"? That goes straight to the favorite album titles list, along with "Never Pat a Burning Dog" (as if we didn't know THAT!)

Some have it as Never PET a Burning Dog. Anyway, my favorite is Pub Crawling With Jimmy Deuchar!

[Larry Kart]

"Hot Buttered Noodling"? That goes straight to the favorite album titles list, along with "Never Pat a Burning Dog" (as if we didn't know THAT!)

Some have it as Never PET a Burning Dog. Anyway, my favorite is Pub Crawling With Jimmy Deuchar!

Nice album, all titles named after British beers and ales. Interesting example of how strong the Tadd Dameron influence was on British jazzmen (players and composers) of that era, much more so than in the U.S.

[Pete C]

Interesting example of how strong the Tadd Dameron influence was on British jazzmen (players and composers) of that era, much more so than in the U.S.

Any other good examples of Dameronian charts in British jazz?

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Pete C

[Larry Kart]

Interesting example of how strong the Tadd Dameron influence was on British jazzmen (players and composers) of that era, much more so than in the U.S.

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though.

Don't agree. Among the soloists, Deuchar is pretty much out of Navarro (strikingly so, but with what I fancy to be a certain individual Scottish flavor), and I don't recall a chart or a piece that isn't fairly Dameron-esque nor any that are West Coast- or Mulligan-like. Two older Brit trumpeters who had some of that flavor I think were Eddie Blair and Bobby Pratt -- the latter two regulars with Ted Heath I believe. All three can be heard to nice effect on composer/arranger Johnny Keating's Dot album "Swinging Scots." Perhaps a sectionman fondness for/need to display a certain brassiness and sheen lay behind their apparent affinity for Navarro over Gillespie or Davis.

In particular, not only do I hear some fairly specific Dameron-like manuevers in the pieces and voicings, but the whole mood of the music is what might called lyrical-muscular, and IIRC it's devoid of the contrapuntal or mock-contrapuntal devices that mark much West Coast work of the era. Also, a tenorman as forceful as Tubby Hayes would have blown apart any West Coast date.

The ins and outs of what U.S. jazz (especially in the post-war era but earlier on, too) influenced jazzmen in other countries is fascinating. The affinity of the Scandinavians (and some Germans. likes Hans Koller) for the Tristano-ites is one obvious example. Without doubt, in most cases it mostly has to do with something semi-innate in the culture on the receiving end rising up to mate with a particular aspect of the culture on the sending end, so to speak. May seem like these are minor side issues, but they may be revealing of (again, so to speak) larger things.

[Peter Friedman]

Interesting example of how strong the Tadd Dameron influence was on British jazzmen (players and composers) of that era, much more so than in the U.S.

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though.

Don't agree. Among the soloists, Deuchar is pretty much out of Navarro (strikingly so, but with what I fancy to be a certain individual Scottish flavor), and I don't recall a chart or a piece that isn't fairly Dameron-esque nor any that are West Coast- or Mulligan-like. Two older Brit trumpeters who had some of that flavor I think were Eddie Blair and Bobby Pratt -- the latter two regulars with Ted Heath I believe. All three can be heard to nice effect on composer/arranger Johnny Keating's Dot album "Swinging Scots." Perhaps a sectionman fondness for/need to display a certain brassiness and sheen lay behind their apparent affinity for Navarro over Gillespie or Davis.

In particular, not only do I hear some fairly specific Dameron-like manuevers in the pieces and voicings, but the whole mood of the music is what might called lyrical-muscular, and IIRC it's devoid of the contrapuntal or mock-contrapuntal devices that mark much West Coast work of the era. Also, a tenorman as forceful as Tubby Hayes would have blown apart any West Coast date.

The ins and outs of what U.S. jazz (especially in the post-war era but earlier on, too) influenced jazzmen in other countries is fascinating. The affinity of the Scandinavians (and some Germans. likes Hans Koller) for the Tristano-ites is one obvious example. Without doubt, in most cases it mostly has to do with something semi-innate in the culture on the receiving end rising up to mate with a particular aspect of the culture on the sending end, so to speak. May seem like these are minor side issues, but they may be revealing of (again, so to speak) larger things.

Larry,

Though you may not perceive any West Coast Jazz influence on the Jimmy Deuchar session, I certainly hear a West Coast Jazz influence in some of the post-war Scandanavian recordings.

I also hear the West Coast influence in some British recordings of early Tommy Whittle , Don Rendell and Ronnie Ross.

As for your comment on Tubby Hayes, it should also be remembered that such non-West Coast style players as Sonny Clark and Max Roach were briefly part of the Lighthouse Allstars.

[Larry Kart]

Interesting example of how strong the Tadd Dameron influence was on British jazzmen (players and composers) of that era, much more so than in the U.S.

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though.

Don't agree. Among the soloists, Deuchar is pretty much out of Navarro (strikingly so, but with what I fancy to be a certain individual Scottish flavor), and I don't recall a chart or a piece that isn't fairly Dameron-esque nor any that are West Coast- or Mulligan-like. Two older Brit trumpeters who had some of that flavor I think were Eddie Blair and Bobby Pratt -- the latter two regulars with Ted Heath I believe. All three can be heard to nice effect on composer/arranger Johnny Keating's Dot album "Swinging Scots." Perhaps a sectionman fondness for/need to display a certain brassiness and sheen lay behind their apparent affinity for Navarro over Gillespie or Davis.

In particular, not only do I hear some fairly specific Dameron-like manuevers in the pieces and voicings, but the whole mood of the music is what might called lyrical-muscular, and IIRC it's devoid of the contrapuntal or mock-contrapuntal devices that mark much West Coast work of the era. Also, a tenorman as forceful as Tubby Hayes would have blown apart any West Coast date.

The ins and outs of what U.S. jazz (especially in the post-war era but earlier on, too) influenced jazzmen in other countries is fascinating. The affinity of the Scandinavians (and some Germans. likes Hans Koller) for the Tristano-ites is one obvious example. Without doubt, in most cases it mostly has to do with something semi-innate in the culture on the receiving end rising up to mate with a particular aspect of the culture on the sending end, so to speak. May seem like these are minor side issues, but they may be revealing of (again, so to speak) larger things.

Larry,

Though you may not perceive any West Coast Jazz influence on the Jimmy Deuchar session, I certainly hear a West Coast Jazz influence in some of the post-war Scandanavian recordings.

I also hear the West Coast influence in some British recordings of early Tommy Whittle , Don Rendell and Ronnie Ross.

As for your comment on Tubby Hayes, it should also be remembered that such non-West Coast style players as Sonny Clark and Max Roach were briefly part of the Lighthouse Allstars.

Yes, some West Coast influence on post-war Scandinavian recordings after a certain point, but most of the major Scandinavian figures who might seem to be of that sort -- Gullin, Rolf Billberg, Nils Lindberg, Domernus, Gosta Theselius, et al. -- were already themselves. The commonality, such as it was, came about because they derived mostly independently from similar models: Lester Young and the 30's Basie Band sensibility (direct and as filtered the Getz et. al), the Tristano-ites (a very strong force in Scandinavian circles, more so I would say than on the West Coast), and the Miles Davis "Birth of the Cool" Band. FWIW and IMO, the earliest and one of the best BOC-influenced ensembles was the Rolf Ericson Octet that recorded four titles (including "Miles Away," arrangements by Theselius) on Sept. 19, 1950. I should add that I believe that whatever resemblance there might be between the Dave Brubeck/Dave Van Kreidt Octet and the BOC band was an accidental rhyme, not a matter of influence or imitation in either direction. Further, FWIW, I feel that the Gullin of the 1950s was a brilliant soloist and a far more notable player than the Mulligan of the same period was (which is not to disparage Mulligan the composer-arranger nor to say that Mulligan didn't become a stronger soloists later on).

As for Clark and Roach with the Lighthouse All-Stars, I think that was more a matter of temporary geographical-economic convenience than deep stylistic affinity.

As for Ross, Whittle, Rendell, and other Britishers of that era, again I feel it was a somewhat (though only somewhat) similar situation to the Scandinavian one I mentioned above. That is, those figures were listening to Pres and Pres-derived figures like Getz et al,, and were well on the way to being or becoming their own selves stylistically before West Coast jazz essentially emerged. In other words, the developments were more parallel than a matter of British players picking on on a West Coast vibe. Of course, once the West Coast style became popular, it was natural for Brit players who had developed in a parallel manner to pick up on some of the trimmings -- because they dug them themselves and because audiences were likely to respond to them. To pick a perhaps semi-trivial example, the same reason that Mulligan found Bernie Miller's "Bernie's Tune" an attractive vehicle to blow on would have pertained to, say, Whittle or Rendell -- with the additional factor that Brit audiences that already dug Mulligan would have been pleased to hear it from the home boys.

[BillF]

Interesting stuff, Larry. I'll just add that the Blakey Messengers that included Byrd, Mobley and Silver seemed to be particularly influential on a group of British jazzmen that included Ronnie Scott, Tubby Hayes, Jimmy Deuchar, Terry Shannon and Phil Seamen. Mobley's sound is there in Scott, there's something of Byrd in Deuchar (as well as Navarro, as you say), Shannon was hugely influenced by Silver and the Jazz Couriers' distinctive arrangements are reminiscent of those of the 1956 Messengers.

Edited January 13, 2012 by BillF

[Larry Kart]

Bill F -- I think you mean Terry Shannon. On Deuchar's "Pub Crawling," drummer Tony Crombie, who alternates with Seaman, is rather Blakey-esque. Scott for sure dug the Hankenstein. But I still get the feeling that there was a distinctive Dameron-esque strain at work among some of those Brit modernists, at least for a while. It may have been as simple as affinity plus access -- access, in person and on record, being far more haphazard in the late '40s/early '50s than in later years. Did the band with Miles and Tadd that played Paris in 1949 stop over in Britain, or were some key Brits at that Paris festival? Did some of the Brits who came to the U.S. in shipboard bands and stayed for a while to hang out and in some cases study -- as Ronnie Ball, Bruce Turner, and Peter Ind did with Tristano -- catch Tadd's band with Navarro and Allen Eager at the Royal Roost, either in-person or on its frequent radio broadcasts? IIRC and FWIW, a fair number of Brit modernist-inclined critics were also drawn to Dameron's music. Perhaps that was largely because the homegrown guys they dug were into that music, but something tells me that there was just a rhyme in sensibility between Tadd and some strain in the Brisish character.

BTW, IIRC another Brit leader and soloist who was heavily into Dameron was tenor saxophonist Kenny Graham.

[JSngry]

As for Clark and Roach with the Lighthouse All-Stars, I think that was more a matter of temporary geographical-economic convenience than deep stylistic affinity.

Although, according to Ted Gioia, Teddy Edwards was the house tenor player before Bob Cooper. Gioia recounts that as the time the tide began to turn, so to speak.

[Larry Kart]

As for Clark and Roach with the Lighthouse All-Stars, I think that was more a matter of temporary geographical-economic convenience than deep stylistic affinity.

Although, according to Ted Gioia, Teddy Edwards was the house tenor player before Bob Cooper. Gioia recounts that as the time the tide began to turn, so to speak.

Exactly. But the turning of the tide was not racist per se or overtly, I think, but stylistic, though clearly there were some affinities and non-affinites of racial sensibility at work within those stylistic affinities. Also, at least eventually, the Lighthouse-type guys (in the broad sense) were associating in the studios during the days and brought those daytime associations to their nightime associations, and Teddy Edwards et al. were not in the studios. Here Buddy Collete might be thought of as an equivocal figure, though "equivocal" is quite not what I mean. Stylistically he was as "white" if you will as any West Coaster (but that's unfair; musically Colette was just himself), and he had all the reading and doubling/tripling skills for studio work, which he did a lot of. Further, when he encountered overt racism in the studios, in the unions, on TV shows, and elsewhere, Collete very effectively and courageously led the fight against it. And his choice of guys to play with -- as a band member with Chico Hamilton for one and as a leader himself -- seemed to be based on nothing other than the guys with whom he felt comfortable musically.

[JSngry]

So - the gig (and the style, and the other gigs that spun off from that) became as much of a country-club clique as it did a seriously driven musical environment, or anything else, the innately curious Jimmy Giuffre & Shelly Manne, and perhaps a few others being the exceptions that prove the rule. Leisure music for the plush ones. As much indulgence as compulsion.

Sounds about right to me, not that there's anything wrong with that. Cliquishness is pretty much unavoidable in any movement, although a clique based on social similarities in an environment where social order is largely preordained and enforced can understandably be viewed as "racist" in effect if not intent, and not without at least some validity.

In the end, though, all the Pleasant Bob Cooper Solos of the world cease to be relevant in a world where Jimmy Giuffre & Teddy Edwards both kept on kepting on (and Benny Golson moved to LA and blanded out and Oliver Nelson went to Hollywood and stuck those dissonances anywhere and everywhere he could, pretty much was anywhere and everywhere), unless you need it to be otherwise, and me, I don't.

So yeah, Tubby Hayes would have slit throats and drank blood. Now that would have been Cool Jazz that really was cool!

[Peter Friedman]

So - the gig (and the style, and the other gigs that spun off from that) became as much of a country-club clique as it did a seriously driven musical environment, or anything else, the innately curious Jimmy Giuffre & Shelly Manne, and perhaps a few others being the exceptions that prove the rule. Leisure music for the plush ones. As much indulgence as compulsion.

Sounds about right to me, not that there's anything wrong with that. Cliquishness is pretty much unavoidable in any movement, although a clique based on social similarities in an environment where social order is largely preordained and enforced can understandably be viewed as "racist" in effect if not intent, and not without at least some validity.

In the end, though, all the Pleasant Bob Cooper Solos of the world cease to be relevant in a world where Jimmy Giuffre & Teddy Edwards both kept on kepting on (and Benny Golson moved to LA and blanded out and Oliver Nelson went to Hollywood and stuck those dissonances anywhere and everywhere he could, pretty much was anywhere and everywhere), unless you need it to be otherwise, and me, I don't.

So yeah, Tubby Hayes would have slit throats and drank blood. Now that would have been Cool Jazz that really was cool!

I can't accept your comment about Bob Coopers solos not being relevant. That is very much a personal value judgement (to which your are entitled) but not one that speaks for me.

In fact, when it comes to tenor saxophone solos I will take Coopers over Giuffre's every time. Giuffre was a highly talented musician who did a lot of very interesting things, but as a tenor

player I rarely found him to be anything special. But as I indicated, personal taste is a key factor in how we view these things.

[JSngry]

Of course it's a personal value judgement. Most things are.

Hey, if Cooper matters that much to you, go ahead, why not? It's not "wrong" or anything.

He doesn't to me. Never has, probably never will.

But he is/was pleasant, and full of capabilities, which deserve respect, if nothing else.

[AndrewHill]

I was just thinking that I wanted to listen to "Bob Brookmeyer and Friends" and I learn that he has passed this morning. What sad news. I have him scattered among a bunch of recordings, but "At the Shrine" and "At Stroryville" stand out along with his own "Traditionalism Revisited". RIP.

[Larry Kart]

So - the gig (and the style, and the other gigs that spun off from that) became as much of a country-club clique as it did a seriously driven musical environment, or anything else, the innately curious Jimmy Giuffre & Shelly Manne, and perhaps a few others being the exceptions that prove the rule. Leisure music for the plush ones. As much indulgence as compulsion.

Sounds about right to me, not that there's anything wrong with that. Cliquishness is pretty much unavoidable in any movement, although a clique based on social similarities in an environment where social order is largely preordained and enforced can understandably be viewed as "racist" in effect if not intent, and not without at least some validity.

In the end, though, all the Pleasant Bob Cooper Solos of the world cease to be relevant in a world where Jimmy Giuffre & Teddy Edwards both kept on kepting on (and Benny Golson moved to LA and blanded out and Oliver Nelson went to Hollywood and stuck those dissonances anywhere and everywhere he could, pretty much was anywhere and everywhere), unless you need it to be otherwise, and me, I don't.

So yeah, Tubby Hayes would have slit throats and drank blood. Now that would have been Cool Jazz that really was cool!

I wasn't at the Lighthouse in its heyday, but "leisure music for the plush ones" sounds quite harsh and off, based on what I've read about that scene and the relation of the music to its actual often rather shaggy, even Five Spot-like (given the place and time) audience there. I pretty much agree with P. Friedman about the virtues of Bob Cooper's tenor playing versus those of Giuffre. Also, Cooper FWIW got even better with age; his final album with Lou Levy and others is quite something IMO.

[sidewinder]

So yeah, Tubby Hayes would have slit throats and drank blood.

The nearest he got to that was on 'Dr Terror's House of Horrors'.

[JSngry]

Bob Cooper...nice guy, I'm sure, and a very pleasant player.

Giuffre on tenor (or anything, really...), that was a story.

[Larry Kart]

Bob Cooper...nice guy, I'm sure, and a very pleasant player.

Giuffre on tenor (or anything, really...), that was a story.

I admire Giuffre, especially on clarinet, and as an often successful adventurer both as a leader and composer, but IMO tenor was not his best instrument, with the possible exception of that odd brief period in 1959-60 when he tried to emulate Rollins (the results there were sort of weird but interesting). On the West Coast at the time that Cooper recording you linked to was made, I found Cooper to be the more satisfying/interesting player -- and again later Cooper grew considerably. Getting back to Giuffre circa 1956-57 on tenor, I can think of a good many tenormen on that scene that I would prefer. Given all of Giuffre's other virtues, on that horn at that time he often seemed to me to be more or less of a huffer and puffer in any "blowing" context (which I know ain't everything, but it is something, and he did make a lot recordings of that sort) and of significant value on tenor only in a relatively abstract "experimental" setting, like that intriguing time-free date he did for Capitol with Jack Sheldon and drummer Artie Anton.

[mracz]

And don't forget that live Paris recording of the Giuffre trio with Don Friedman and Barre Phillips where Giuffre on tenor produces his own take on mid-sixties Trane; weird but interesting is the right phrase!

[JSngry]

I don't have unlimited shelf space. Therefore, Giuffre is allowed room, but not so Bob Cooper, except where he just happens to otherwise be there. No matter how much he "grew" it's always relative to where he was before, never to where he got to. Kinda like walking on a treadmill while riding a train.

But Bill Perkins, for him there's a spot or two!

[BillF]

I don't have unlimited shelf space. Therefore, Giuffre is allowed room, but not so Bob Cooper, except where he just happens to otherwise be there. No matter how much he "grew" it's always relative to where he was before, never to where he got to. Kinda like walking on a treadmill while riding a train.

But Bill Perkins, for him there's a spot or two!

Poor ol' Coop!

[JSngry]

Plenty of shelves have room for him, I'm sure. He's not missing not being on mine.

[Larry Kart]

I don't have unlimited shelf space. Therefore, Giuffre is allowed room, but not so Bob Cooper, except where he just happens to otherwise be there. No matter how much he "grew" it's always relative to where he was before, never to where he got to. Kinda like walking on a treadmill while riding a train.

But Bill Perkins, for him there's a spot or two!

Agree about vintage Perkins (with later Perkins being IMO a more or less odd, poignant and meaningful trip). And OK, I suppose, about where Cooper got to being relative to where he was before (which could in a sense be said about anyone) -- but I don't know if you know where Cooper eventually did get to, which if so makes your "walking on a treadmill while riding a train" image rather amorphous. Again, though, only "if so."

BTW that 1990 album of Cooper's that I like a lot is "For All We Know" (Fresh Sound") -- one of the label's wholly legit issues, for those who care. Fine late Cooper. too, from 1993, the year of his death, on the "Bob Cooper-Conte Candoli Quintet" (VSOP) -- with a meaty choice of tunes, including "Confirmation," "Tin Tin Deo," "Airegin," "Hackensack," "Ow!," and "Con Alma."

[JSngry]

Yeah, I know where he got to, and good for him. It just doesn't matter to me.

Sorry.