jazzbo Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 Interesting John, the link you posit between Ornette's playing and Pres'. . . . I hear a ton of Bird in Ornette, which of course would mean a link back to Pres. I hadn't thought about that. Thanks for bringing it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 Interesting--I've always noticed a Pres-Ornette connection, but not precisely in the terms John laid out. For me it's more a rhythmic thing, best exemplified by Ornette, I think, in the Golden Circle recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 (edited) Interesting John, the link you posit between Ornette's playing and Pres'. . . . I hear a ton of Bird in Ornette, which of course would mean a link back to Pres. I hadn't thought about that. Thanks for bringing it up. Lester and free jazz Well I must admit these are not simplest things to trace, but one can look for those specific changes in Pres playing that occurred at the beginning of his late style period till the end. "Free" licks and phrases are not so audible in every solo, but they are here and there, and you must listen to Pres entire heritage to identify them. Judging from what I heard it is clearly that "Lady Be Good" 1939. Decca session with Basie brings these unexpected tones Lester used to "overblown" Chu Berry on that one. It can be the earliest example of such not connected to harmony and rhythm expression. Lester has such ideas in his mind earlier maybe, but it can only be told when hard research to Basie broadcasts will take place. I have one broadcast that has second A part on "John's Idea" solo played so "out of everything" that is unbelievable. Still it is so strong one can simply believe his ears. That broadcast is around 1937 or 1938 (disc does not provide precise information). When it is talk about my favorite Pres excursions to "free" it is on JATP 1949 solo on title named "The Closer". Go and hear some of his latest choruses on that title, and you will hear Edited February 18, 2004 by mmilovan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Thanks for your "Guide to Free Jazz on Lester Young", Milan. Your comments on Pres´ solos are highly appreciated by us "closed-ears" listeners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 B) Nah, mine ears are closed too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted February 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Milan, welcome back! And thanks for your comments above! Can't believe you guys walk around with closed ears Still I'm only listening to the Basie things, not to JATP. Will have closer listens to the broadcasts I have now, and report back if I find something interesting down the alley of your free jazz thoughts. ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Milan, you RULE, dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 It is great thing everybody is here - Jim welcome to our revisited LY corner. And now little qouestion: what do you think - was Lester influenced only by Tram or Bix has his part in developing Pres as musican? I think he certainly had, because delicate usage of silence and rhytmic approach was more like Bix! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 I think Pres heard Bix & Tram equally, sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 HE DEFINITELY listened to those two, and I think they did influence his sound and thinking. Still, the reason we love Pres is probably most because of . . . Pres. That whole family was so musical! It would be really something if we could hear the music the others besides the bros Les and Lee made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 (edited) I agree. Pres himself cited Tram as his main influence, and I see no reason to doubt that he was. But if he was listening to Tram, he was sure to be hearing Bix in the mix as well. It does seem like there is certain tie between them. Both Bix and Pres were somehow able to sound simultaneously strong and powerful one moment, and then delicate and fragile the next. Edited February 19, 2004 by John L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 (edited) That whole family was so musical! It would be really something if we could hear the music the others besides the bros Les and Lee made! Right Lon, and we can only regret there are not so many recorded music examples where Lester and Lee played together. BTW is brother Lee, powerful and, at the same time delicate drummer too (IMO), still alive? Both Bix and Pres were somehow able to sound simultaneously strong and powerful one moment, and then delicate and fragile the next. John, these words were so nicely put! And that CONTRAST, where you never know what's next, is probably what amazes me the most, both in Bix and Pres! Edited February 20, 2004 by mmilovan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 (edited) BTW is brother Lee, powerful and, at the same time delicate drummer too (IMO), still alive? Well, probably someone will know facts about this... Lee was marvelous performer, and as such he sould not be forgotten! He dropped out his drum sticks in his later years, and he did producing job. I didn't belive my eyes when I saw his name under production credits for "Cabaret" soundtrack album (did not remember the label, probably CBS). Edited February 23, 2004 by mmilovan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 (edited) More observations: 1) Speaking of Pres development as musician and, his never ending seek for sound ("I developed my saxophone to play it, make it sound just like an alto, make it sound like a tenor, make it sound like a bass and everything, and I'm not through working on it yet) - may I ask all of the members: WHAT instrument to hell did he played at that, not well accepted February 7th, 1958. session on master take of the tune "You're Getting To Be a Habit With Me" (Verve set, disc 7 first track on that one)? At the beginning, there are not so many interesting things, Pres is really absent (probably he was seriously ill at that time), and group of his friends and accompanists did quite nice job to save the date from serious disaster. But, here it comes last 8 bars on that tune, work of true giant, played with such mellowness you would not ever believe. What instrument is it? Alto? Pres switched to alto? No, it's SOPRANO, those tones are so high, soft, laid back. Only few seconds more, and you can have the full story. Yes, of course, it is Pres on tenor, but played with such care and sense for soprano coloration you can't imagine. And all that is played probably during the most tragic moments of his life, during the struggle with all those terrible addictions that led to sad and unpleasant end. 2) It is so relaxed to hear first few tones on "Somebody Loves Me" on the same Verve set (disc 3, track 19). Don't think it is unconsciousness fooling around with horn but, on the contrary, interesting free formed device to capture everyone attention. From time to time Pres used to insert this interesting few bars device in his postwar solos. How nice and free-minded it sounds today, and what avangarde look it had so many years ago. Was Lester first free jazz musician? Edited June 8, 2004 by mmilovan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 One of the most interesting statements about Pres came from Kevin Eubanks: “Every instrument seems to have a prophet, like Coltrane was to tenor-we’re talking modern stuff, although you can’t get any deeper on an instrument than Lester Young.” These days, not very happy for me personally, I listened to Lester’s postwar period. These are mainly live recordings, and there is one among them I can really speak no words about. It is (fragmented) “I Cover The Waterfront” version from concert in Paris, Salle Pleyel, Apr. 6, 1952 (Young played last part in medley, and fortunately his solo was preserved in wax or on tape, entirely). So, why am I speechless about this short, bad recorded take? Because it proves words from Kevin Eubanks. There are nothing deeper, nothing so colorful, tragic, so firmly involved in jazz than this. Say, these are not words from beginner in listening to this wonderful music, but, experienced listener with more than 1000 CDs from every period of jazz. Everything is involved here: Pres and his unbelievable sense for “correct” as well as “unusual” rhythm patterns, his perfect ability to transform good, but well known tune into something totally different melodic line, song from the soul filled with strongest emotions – one can instantly cry after hearing it. And, to be honest, I did just like that, when I heard it first, strokes me directly into my mind, not to forget that 2 minute solo as long as I live. I am speechless, these are only bunch of unarticulated words I like to express about one of greatest of them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Well, I must say that reading this few days ago was real ear and eye opener for me: (...) "And then I met "the President," Lester Young, when he would come down from Kansas City to play in St. Louis. He'd have Shorty McConnell on trumpet in his band, and sometimes I'd come over with my horn to where they were playing and sit in. Man, playing with with Prez was something. I learned a lot from the way he played the saxophone. As a matter of fact, I tried to transpose some of his saxophone licks over to my trumpet." Miles, The Autobiography (Miles Davis with Quincy Troupe) I didn't know that Miles listen to Pres THAT closely. Miles was influenced by Pres, Trane, J. J. Johnson, Barney Kessel, Charlie Christian, Charlie Parker, Herb Ellis... and all of them mentioned that as theirs prime influence. Yes, folks, Pres really WAS something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I didn't know that Miles listen to Pres THAT closely. Dude, standing on the stand right next to him while he plays is as closely as you CAN listen to him! Talk about a blessing, anybody who had that opportunity got one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 I didn't know that Miles listen to Pres THAT closely. Dude, standing on the stand right next to him while he plays is as closely as you CAN listen to him! Talk about a blessing, anybody who had that opportunity got one. Well, the point of above statement of mine was that I didn't know Miles transposed Pres licks to his trumpet. It is whole new dimension to listen to Miles from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 I didn't know that Miles listen to Pres THAT closely. Dude, standing on the stand right next to him while he plays is as closely as you CAN listen to him! Talk about a blessing, anybody who had that opportunity got one. Well, the point of above statement of mine was that I didn't know Miles transposed Pres licks to his trumpet. It is whole new dimension to listen to Miles from. You do have that one track they recorded together in Europe, in 1956? Pretty sad, as far as Lester's concerned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 (edited) Yes, right - only one track. But hearing Miles, Pres, and MJQ playing together is terrific experience. I think that more tracks were recorded during Switzerland concert, to-day unissued. Edited September 20, 2004 by mmilovan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Yes, right - only one track. But hearing Miles, Pres, and MJQ playing together is terrific experience. I think that more tracks were recorded during Switzerland concert, to-day unissued. Probably yes, but that was some Granz/JATP package, so it's not sure, I'd say. This is from Losin, the comment to the Zurich date: Part of a concert from the "Birdland All-Stars in Europe" tour. In addition to Davis, the tour featured Lester Young, Bud Powell, The Modern Jazz Quartet, the Kurt Edelhagen Orchestra, and the René Urtreger Trio. The itinerary was as follows: November 2: Salle Pleyel, Paris November 3 (evening): Concertgebouw, Haarlem November 3 (midnight): Concertgebouw, Amsterdam November 5: Unknown venue, Brussels November 6: Rheinhalle, Düsseldorf November 7: Sportspalast, Berlin November 8: Unknown venue, Mannheim November 9: Kongresshalle, Frankfurt November 10: Unknown venue, Hamburg November 11: Deutsches Museum, Munich November 12: Stadthalle, Freiburg November 13: Konserthuset, Stockholm November 14: KB-Hallen, Copenhagen November 16: Unknown venue, Lille November 17: Salle Pleyel, Paris November 18: Unknown venue, Strasbourg November 19: Kongresshaus, Zürich November 20: Victoria Hall, Geneva November 21: Musikhalle, Basel November 22: Teatro di via Manzoni, Turin November 23: Teatro Nuovo, Turin November 24: Unknown venue, Marseilles November 25: Unknown venue, Lyons The few fragments that survive from this tour show Davis in fine form and a very frail Lester Young. The Freiburg date has one track featuring Miles with Prez, it's on the 16CD set. However, it's sad and strange that only so very little material from these concerts did turn up. Remind me to write a mail to the swiss radio folks who might know more about what is still around from the 11-19 date (and maybe the 11-20 and 11-21 dates as well). ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 However, it's sad and strange that only so very little material from these concerts did turn up. Remind me to write a mail to the swiss radio folks who might know more about what is still around from the 11-19 date (and maybe the 11-20 and 11-21 dates as well). ubu Only thinking of such possibility makes my eyes sparkle in blue flames Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Text that followes is probably more suitable for discography forum, but seing how many titles from live postwar dates remain unissued (most those recorded by Boris Rose) makes me think someone (Mosaic) should do that! 22 LP (16 CD) set issued by italian/japan record comanies cover only about half (if even smaller) dose. Many broadcast from fifties are only fragmented form (and it is known they exists), not to mention what possibly is not yet discovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l p Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 You do have that one track they recorded together in Europe, in 1956? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Happy birthday, Prez... We are patiently waiting to hear that 1940's material from LOC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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