Zorn: The Big Gundown

[AllenLowe]

well, that was the reviewer consensus - I can't cite chapter and verse, but The Big Gundown was the recording which seemed to move Zorn front and center (internationally as well; he was/is a bona fide new music star and one of the few who've gotten rich in the process). The downtown thing was significant - centered around the Knitting Factory and, though based there, was not really NY-centric. Impacted a lot of musicians, including myself. It put the last nail in the coffin of my bebop-centricism. Not only Zorn, but Byron, Joe McPhee, Brandon Ross, Robin Holcomb/Wayne Horvitz, Ben Goldberg, even Frisell, as I recall (this was a long time ago); even Braxton was somehow, if artificially, appended to that whole era. Also, a lot of significant post-Punk non jazz things, Teenage Jesus, No New York, Mars, Lydia Lunch, Robert Quine. Arthur Russell. Also Ribot, Anthony Coleman. So it was, IMHO, as significant in its musical after-effects as AACM.

and actually I disagree re: Jetman and Zorn - Zorn is truly a World celebrity, not really attached to NYC anymore, a star attraction internationally and (at least he used to be) a resident of Japan.

Edited October 22, 2011 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

There are several musicians who started out "downtown" who have transcended that scene.

Bill Frisell.

well, that was the reviewer consensus - I can't cite chapter and verse, but The Big Gundown was the recording which seemed to move Zorn front and center

It was on a "big" label and thus the hype.

[JohnS]

I saw Naked City on two occasions. The first time they where an absolute knockout, By the second time the thrill had gone. Saw him much later in a show with Masada and Ba-koba(is that right?) plus another Zorn lineup. Can't say I enjoyed it that much. But I love his playing on the Sonny Clarke memorial album and the two cds I have where he plays with John Patton. And of course the two News For Lulu discs where he really brings these melodies to life.

[JSngry]

The downtown thing was significant - centered around the Knitting Factory and, though based there, was not really NY-centric. Impacted a lot of musicians, including myself. It put the last nail in the coffin of my bebop-centricism. Not only Zorn, but Byron, Joe McPhee, Brandon Ross, Robin Holcomb/Wayne Horvitz, Ben Goldberg, even Frisell, as I recall (this was a long time ago); even Braxton was somehow, if artificially, appended to that whole era. Also, a lot of significant post-Punk non jazz things, Teenage Jesus, No New York, Mars, Lydia Lunch, Robert Quine. Arthur Russell. Also Ribot, Anthony Coleman. So it was, IMHO, as significant in its musical after-effects as AACM.

Other than McPhee (and even then only to a degree, and he was around long before the downtown scene), none of these players really matter to me in any way other than knowing that they're there and that they play well. I'm glad they're there and I'm glad that they're doing that, but..Don Byron? Really?

There's just one too may layer of "detachment" to the whole thing for me...even when it's hot, it's not the type of hot that will burn your skin off, it's the type of hot that makes you look at yo0ur buddies and say "wow, that was hot!" and then go to the bar laughing about, yeah, that was hot!

Of course that's just me, and what is important to me need not be important to you, and vice-versa, I'm just saying...if the downtown scene is important in any "universal" way, then...I'm not in that universe and don't really feel any need to be. To the degree that I still care about such things, I've got other muses to follow. And definitely did when I really did care about such things.

[7/4]

On the other hand, I have a visceral, deep reaction to stuff like Material's Memory Serves or Massacre's Killing Time--the sort of music that wonderfully and perfectly captures a specific concept and time (probably more limited in "scope" than The Big Gundown, although by no means less thoughtful or technically spectacular). Maybe the narrower focus of those albums makes the music sound less esoteric/conceptual and more "free"?

Two albums I still go back to, but not the Big Gundown.

[JETman]

well, that was the reviewer consensus - I can't cite chapter and verse, but The Big Gundown was the recording which seemed to move Zorn front and center (internationally as well; he was/is a bona fide new music star and one of the few who've gotten rich in the process). The downtown thing was significant - centered around the Knitting Factory and, though based there, was not really NY-centric. Impacted a lot of musicians, including myself. It put the last nail in the coffin of my bebop-centricism. Not only Zorn, but Byron, Joe McPhee, Brandon Ross, Robin Holcomb/Wayne Horvitz, Ben Goldberg, even Frisell, as I recall (this was a long time ago); even Braxton was somehow, if artificially, appended to that whole era. Also, a lot of significant post-Punk non jazz things, Teenage Jesus, No New York, Mars, Lydia Lunch, Robert Quine. Arthur Russell. Also Ribot, Anthony Coleman. So it was, IMHO, as significant in its musical after-effects as AACM.

and actually I disagree re: Jetman and Zorn - Zorn is truly a World celebrity, not really attached to NYC anymore, a star attraction internationally and (at least he used to be) a resident of Japan.

He's as much a world celebrity as you are!

[AllenLowe]

I wish......

[Hoppy T. Frog]

Still nobody who will come out and say what they really mean about this guy?

Zorn is a sucky poseur who has a lot of talented people around him.

[PHILLYQ]

Some things he's done are, IMHO, wonderful, like the 'Spy vs. Spy', Naked City and the Masada stuff. Other projects just don't connect to me and sound like he's trying too hard to be that scene/music/idea instead of just being himself.

I've seen him play a few times and the results were mixed.Saw the Dreamers group and they were fantastic, hard-hitting, swingin' and very electric. Another time he played at a benefit for some Karl Berger organization and he sounded like he was trying to shoehorn himself into what was being played- it was quite awkward.

[paul secor]

John Zorn is a clever guy, but underneath there's not much there, unless you're into cleverness for its own sake.

The Big Gundown is no masterpiece in any world I inhabit.

[Steve Reynolds]

not the biggest Zorn fan but I do like some of the first few Masada records but hear this.

I attended the Anthony Braxton 65th birthday celebration this past Spring, which had a number of bands playing what turned out to be 25 to 35 minute sets. One of the bands was Zorn, Dave Douglas, Brad Jones (?) and Gerry Hemingway.

For 25 minutes they roared, swung, and lifted the roof off the place. Douglas *and* Zorn were beyond great on their horns - no posing that night - you can't fake it when you are truly great - and that night that band was truly great including Zorn on alto saxophone.

[jlhoots]

Still nobody who will come out and say what they really mean about this guy?

Zorn is a sucky poseur who has a lot of talented people around him.

I don't agree with the first 5 words of the above post.

[AllenLowe]

Zorn plays alto well, I agree. He's got his own thing,

[johnlitweiler]

not the biggest Zorn fan but I do like some of the first few Masada records but hear this.

I attended the Anthony Braxton 65th birthday celebration this past Spring, which had a number of bands playing what turned out to be 25 to 35 minute sets. One of the bands was Zorn, Dave Douglas, Brad Jones (?) and Gerry Hemingway.

For 25 minutes they roared, swung, and lifted the roof off the place. Douglas *and* Zorn were beyond great on their horns - no posing that night - you can't fake it when you are truly great - and that night that band was truly great including Zorn on alto saxophone.

I was there too and also enjoyed them. They played a Braxton composition and Douglas must have rehearsed them hard. While Zorn is no Braxton, the quartet burned a lot like a late '70s Braxton quartet.

[jeffcrom]

John Zorn is a clever guy, but underneath there's not much there, unless you're into cleverness for its own sake.

The Big Gundown is no masterpiece in any world I inhabit.

I think I understand where you're coming from, but I think there's more to Zorn than that. At times I feel that he's gone in so many different directions that there's no "there" there. (I sometimes feel the same way about a very different musician, Chick Corea.) And I too find much of Zorn's work cleverly shallow, or shallowly clever. But on the other hand, baby....

I find a good bit of his output compelling. I love Masada and the News for Lulu project. I even think that his "game" pieces sometimes result in groups of improvisers being provided with just enough structure/guidance to result in some excellent music that wouldn't have happened without Zorn's "rules."

So I like of lot of Zorn's music, even if I don't quite "trust" him.

[paul secor]

John Zorn is a clever guy, but underneath there's not much there, unless you're into cleverness for its own sake.

The Big Gundown is no masterpiece in any world I inhabit.

I think I understand where you're coming from, but I think there's more to Zorn than that. At times I feel that he's gone in so many different directions that there's no "there" there. (I sometimes feel the same way about a very different musician, Chick Corea.) And I too find much of Zorn's work cleverly shallow, or shallowly clever. But on the other hand, baby....

I find a good bit of his output compelling. I love Masada and the News for Lulu project. I even think that his "game" pieces sometimes result in groups of improvisers being provided with just enough structure/guidance to result in some excellent music that wouldn't have happened without Zorn's "rules."

So I like of lot of Zorn's music, even if I don't quite "trust" him.

I don't think we're that far apart. I gave up on Zorn some years ago, so I probably haven't heard as much of his work as you have. What I heard through most of the 80s didn't make me inclined to keep listening.

[.:.impossible]

"Trust". Finally something I can understand in this conversation.

[JETman]

"Trust". Finally something I can understand in this conversation.

You don't understand poseur or lack of chops? Zorn wouldn't know a change if it came up and slapped him in the ass!

[Big Wheel]

"Trust". Finally something I can understand in this conversation.

You don't understand poseur or lack of chops? Zorn wouldn't know a change if it came up and slapped him in the ass!

Listen to "Nicely" off the Sonny Clark tribute record (especially the double-time runs) and then tell us you don't think Zorn has chops or can play changes.

[AllenLowe]

he definitely can play changes. No question.

[JETman]

he definitely can play changes. No question.

I know you're going out of your play to play nice, Allen. But giving pat answers like a cardboard cutout of a talking head is just plain wrong! This is a discussion forum after all.

[AllenLowe]

yes, yes, you are correct.

[JETman]

yes, yes, you are correct.

[clifford_thornton]

The downtown thing was significant - centered around the Knitting Factory and, though based there, was not really NY-centric. Impacted a lot of musicians, including myself. It put the last nail in the coffin of my bebop-centricism. Not only Zorn, but Byron, Joe McPhee, Brandon Ross, Robin Holcomb/Wayne Horvitz, Ben Goldberg, even Frisell, as I recall (this was a long time ago); even Braxton was somehow, if artificially, appended to that whole era. Also, a lot of significant post-Punk non jazz things, Teenage Jesus, No New York, Mars, Lydia Lunch, Robert Quine. Arthur Russell. Also Ribot, Anthony Coleman. So it was, IMHO, as significant in its musical after-effects as AACM.

Other than McPhee (and even then only to a degree, and he was around long before the downtown scene), none of these players really matter to me in any way other than knowing that they're there and that they play well. I'm glad they're there and I'm glad that they're doing that, but..Don Byron? Really?

There's just one too may layer of "detachment" to the whole thing for me...even when it's hot, it's not the type of hot that will burn your skin off, it's the type of hot that makes you look at yo0ur buddies and say "wow, that was hot!" and then go to the bar laughing about, yeah, that was hot!

Of course that's just me, and what is important to me need not be important to you, and vice-versa, I'm just saying...if the downtown scene is important in any "universal" way, then...I'm not in that universe and don't really feel any need to be. To the degree that I still care about such things, I've got other muses to follow. And definitely did when I really did care about such things.

Why is McPhee mentioned among these people?!? Joe has his own thing going that dips way, way back. He was a contemporary of the Ayler brothers and began recording in 1967, and he's still going even stronger today. He wasn't even really playing in the US in the 1980s.

The no wavers were Downtown geographically but had a much, much different thing going on than the improvisers you mention. Sure, some cross pollination with Kip Hanrahan and of course Rudolph Grey's free music trios with Arthur Doyle, Beaver Harris, Rashied Ali, Jim Sauter, Charles Gayle et al. (Blue Humans = proverbial round peg in a square hole no matter the genre), but it's hard for me to think of say, Mars in the same league with Naked City. I don't think deconstruction and concept were as much a part of the no wave thing as some people might like to say. Mars is closer to Albert Ayler than it is Zorn - primal, old-world shit. By the same token, Branca, Chatham, and Russell were composers first and foremost, and made some very interesting and very beautiful music. The first two still do. Arthur Russell's first LP was on Phillip Glass's imprint, Chatham Square, IIRC.

[clifford_thornton]

I'll add that I have no problem with Zorn - not a ton of interest in his work but things like Lulu and the Masada stuff get played around the chateau. I held onto Cobra, too, though I don't listen to it much. Though not important in the Zorn discography, his appearances on Frank Lowe and Peter Brotzmann orchestra LPs was kind of curious.