Gigi Gryce

[Niko]

and if you buy one you won't go to heaven no matter what the test in mikelz777's signature tells you.

(plus if you buy it from the US, someone is guilty of something - and if you're aware of that then at least morally part of the guilt is yours - like if you order cocain from a place where it's not illegal) (plus if you buy something which looks so ugly - ...)

[mikelz777]

Well, despite the naysayers here, I placed an order for the Gryce. I'd be happy to report on it once I receive it and give it a listen. I don't see anything in this set that I would have bought otherwise were it not for this set. Some of the prices out there for the individual discs from 2nd and 3rd party sellers are outrageous.

[jlhoots]

I'd rather "steal" free FLAC files from sharity blogs than pay for stuff like this.

I don't get it. Do you abstain from buying Dickens because his heirs don't get paid either?

Both Dickens and Gryce are dead. How cold does the body have to be?

The point is, even if you can't support the artist, why support the thief? Personally,

I like the idea of stealing that which is not rightfully yours. Call it poetic justice.

Like my man Omar says:

All in the game, yo.

I miss Omar too.

[David Ayers]

Go for it. Ignore the hypocrites.

[sonnymax]

I'd rather "steal" free FLAC files from sharity blogs than pay for stuff like this.

I don't get it. Do you abstain from buying Dickens because his heirs don't get paid either?

Both Dickens and Gryce are dead. How cold does the body have to be?

The point is, even if you can't support the artist, why support the thief?

sonnymax, do you understand the concepts of copyright and public domain? Real Gone are not thieves. These are works in the public domain in Europe, just like Charles Dickens' works.

As Jim pointed out, the copyright is in effect in the U.S., which is where you live and where Real Gone sells some of its ill-gotten booty. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens when the E.U. adopts the extended copyright laws. My guess is nothing will change. Perhaps they'll move to Andorra!

[JSngry]

Who needs Andorra when you've got the Internet?

[paul secor]

All of us should listen to more new music.

[Big Beat Steve]

As Jim pointed out, the copyright is in effect in the U.S., which is where you live and where Real Gone sells some of its ill-gotten booty. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens when the E.U. adopts the extended copyright laws. My guess is nothing will change. Perhaps they'll move to Andorra!

If you study those (im)pending changes to the European copyright law (plus the thread on that subject on this forum) then you will see that this coypright is NOT retroacive. i.e. the cutoff date for recordings that had already fallen into the public domain by the time this "law" becomes effective will remain as itn is - 50 years. Those that have NOT yet reached that 50-year cutoff date will henceforth be copyright-protected for 70 years.

So you could nail down those reissuers for post-1961 reordings but not for older ones.

As for being a U.S. buyer or not, isn't there rather much of a "holier than thou" attitude involved? (See the eternal debate of "Proper box" vs "Andorran" (in Fact, Catalonian) reissuers, for example).

Edited October 24, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[Niko]

i always forget these things and they don't really matter, but doesn't the original artwork have a longer protection? same for remastering and stuff unless they do their own vinyl rips?

[JSngry]

As for being a U.S. buyer or not, isn't there rather much of a "holier than thou" attitude involved? (See the eternal debate of "Proper box" vs "Andorran" (in Fact, Catalonian) reissuers, for example).

I don't know about anybody else, but I don't buy any of that stuff "new", and will only pay for it used if it's at garage sale prices. Proper is pretty, but still sleazy, the Andorrans are "classy", but still sleazy, and although the Chornological (or however they spell it) Classics packages are well-intentioned, well-enough executed, and benign in spirit, they're still no substitute in quality or ethicality for a good reissue made from and by the original "sources",

If I have the want/need, I'll buy a copy of an issue where I know that, at least in theory, copyrights & royalties (such as they are) are being paid and/or concerted original effort was put into the remastering (and this is where all the "pretty" boys like Proper and such fail, they just flat out snatch the food off of somebody else's plate and then dress it up all cheap hi-dollar whorish and take it down to the street corner like they GOT something...they do - somebody else's stuff). Other that that, hey, the Internet is my friend.

Users who have extreme budgetary constraints and/or different home town copyright laws have every right to follow their own compunctions. My compunctions are that if you're gonna take my woman and then try to sell her back to me, you damn well better have added some real, lasting value and not just given her a boob job and taught her how to be a slut for just anydamnbody.

Then again, there seems to be no shortage of a market for sluttery these days.

[Dan Gould]

[sonnymax]

Dammit Jim. I'm with you all the way, and then you go and get all Texas toast with the misogyny shit.

Oh well, you know what they say:

[JSngry]

It's misogynist to point out the dignity of women by using their degradation as a negative example/metaphor? Coulda fooled me...

Ok, next time I want to point out how fundamentally wrong something is, I'll use a less powerful metaphor..like a tuna sandwich, or...a Yugo.

Either way, the "whoring out somebody else's woman" mentality is exactly what's at work with these type labels, and the pimp/whore mentality is about 99% of everything else you see in the "music business" these days.

Edited October 24, 2011 by JSngry

[JSngry]

I mean, really, look at this:

Just spread that shit around like it's the aftermath of some drunk's house party and you just happened to be sober enough to pick them up and get out the house while everybody else is passed out...and now you gonna carry it off to the other side of town and offer "EIGHT CLASSIC ALBUMS DIGITALLY REMASTERED FOR SUPERIOR QUALITY".

Sorry bub, I've seen pimps in action and I've seen carnies in action and I've seen cheap thieves trying to fence in action, and I really don't care what the legalities are in the country of origin, this looks and feels exactly the same way.

Legally, it may be "public domain", but in spirit, It's going for the cheap score by appealing to people who are looking for the cheap score.

[Big Beat Steve]

... and this is where all the "pretty" boys like Proper and such fail, they just flat out snatch the food off of somebody else's plate and then dress it up all cheap hi-dollar whorish and take it down to the street corner like they GOT something...they do - somebody else's stuff

See ... that EXACTLY my point I've made a number of times here about the "inherent" value of the Proper boxes vs. the Fresh Sound et al. labels.

Provided the recordings reissued that way are at least 50 years old by the time of reissue these reissue sets (Proper, Spanish or any others) just are legit in Europe even if no royalty payments are involved and I do admit I do have some Proper boxes - for reasons of convenience - and some Lonehill items too, apart from a whole slew of Fresh Sounds because they cover uncharted reissue territory)

So ... assuming we're talking about recordings PAST the 50-year European P.D. cutoff date that STILL may be shady to illegal by U.S. copyright laws if sold THERE (Stateside):

I can fully understand those who rant about cheaply made re-re-reissues of major items that still are in print (or have been reissued only recently by legit labels - cf. UPTOWN reissues), but Fresh Sound et al. at least PARTIALLY have the inherent merit of reissuing stuff nobody but REALLY NOBODY elsewhere would have bothered touching for reissue at any rate. Just because these are recordings that are on minor indie labels that nobody would have bothered about aynwhere else. Least of all the majors. Or can you see many other "legit" reissuer companies falling over each other in a scramble to do a CD reissue of that "Jazz From The North Coast" LP (on the Zephyr label) or like items?

WHEREAS in the case of the Proper boxes the (previously reissued) sources for their compilations are really fairly blatantly obvious. To name just one case: Please do go to the trouble to check the track listing of their Accordeon jazz box and then compare this listing to that of the Accordeon box set done by Fremeaux Associés in the late 90s (but still available as of late) and also consider that certain other items such as those by Mat Mathews have also been graced with reissues in more recent times. And now please tell me what your guess would be why they fell back on not so long ago-ish reissues instead of delving into really new first-time reissues of that kind of jazz (and there is a lot of that around!) that would ahve advanced the cause of the collectors by producing a COMPLEMENTARY box set to the FA box set instead of a majoritarily overlapping one.

Any guesses? Which approach would be the easier way out?

And STILL Proper boxes DID get appreciative writeups here fairly often - apparently from those (this is my guess) who took the opportunity of conveniently covering artists from the bebop (or at any rate the pre-hard bop era) in one sweep that they had very little of in their collections up to that time. Whereas the same collectors would rant about hard bop stuff (even if 50+ years old) that had been reissued by "those Andorrans". Why? Are hard bop artists more deserving of royalties than bebop or 40s swing (remember the 70-year

U.S. cutoff date) musicians? This is what I call a "holier than thou" attitude. And it probably is what David Ayers referred to as the "hypocrites" above.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[A Lark Ascending]

It's dead simple.

If you live in Euroland, buy them. They are legitimate (if frequently not the best way to release them soundwise).

If you live in the USA, don't. In the same way that your moral repugnance towards recordings outside of copyright would never let you buy a bootleg.

That way, we can all feel sanctimonious.

Edited October 24, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[Niko]

if i read this here right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law#Copyright

then francis wolff's cover photographs are still protected in the UK until 2041 (he died in 1971 + 70 years)... but maybe they got around that protection through the collage they made (iirc avid does not use the original covers of blue note albums); and reid miles died in 1993 so that would make it 2063...

Edited October 24, 2011 by Niko

[JSngry]

If you live in the USA, don't. In the same way that your moral repugnance towards recordings outside of copyright would never let you buy a bootleg.

Now that there's the internet, there's no need to buy a bootleg. Ever. Simple as that.

Altogether different game now.

[A Lark Ascending]

If you live in the USA, don't. In the same way that your moral repugnance towards recordings outside of copyright would never let you buy a bootleg.

Now that there's the internet, there's no need to buy a bootleg. Ever. Simple as that.

Altogether different game now.

True.

But interesting that the moral outrage expressed at 'Andorran' releases frequently comes from those who are happy to discuss bootlegs elsewhere.

[JSngry]

Well, yeah. The "Andorran" releases are quite often needle drops. Hell, I could get needle drops back in the day using cassettes. Same thing with live shows, they circulated on cassettes. Nobody really paid for that stuff exceet for when it came out on those weirdass Boris Rose labels and such. And even then...those things were just so...blatant as to have thier own appeal. There wasn't one shred of legitimacy to them, not one shred! And htey were priced accordingly, at least in my part of the world.

Why should I now pay the same price as a regular CD for what is essentially a CD equivalent of a cassette dub or a Boris Rose lp?

Use the internet for getting your cassette dubs, save your money, and maintain some self-respect!

Edited October 24, 2011 by JSngry

[Big Beat Steve]

... except for when it came out on those weirdass Boris Rose labels and such. And even then...those things were just so...blatant as to have thier own appeal. There wasn't one shred of legitimacy to them, not one shred! And htey were priced accordingly, at least in my part of the world.

If I remember those colorful Ray Avery mail order sales sheets from the early 80s correctly, they weren't priced THAT far below other, more "regular" LP reissue series.

And of course those "blatancy" complaints will then go for those "Sounds of Swing", "Bandstand", "Ajax", "Ajazz" etc. etc. LP series (featuring strictly STUDIO recordings, no airshots) too, right?

Edited October 24, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[A Lark Ascending]

Use the internet for getting your cassette dubs, save your money, and maintain some self-respect!

Not sure why using the internet allows you to maintain self-respect. Surely the only way to do that is to refuse to purchase anything that infringes the copyright laws of wherever you live.

I've spend a fortune on legitimate recordings since 1970 (not sure how much of what I spent ended up in the creators' pockets, but...). But I've also made cassettes/CD-Rs of friends' LPs/CDs and of library copies. I've bought Andorran releases and, more recently, downloaded MIA recordings from the likes of Rapidshare.

So I have to throw my hands up and admit moral weakness.

[Big Beat Steve]

So I have to throw my hands up and admit moral weakness.

You don't. You're just being realistic in today's world the way this world it is. But if it helps you to maintain some self-respect, download some Cliff Richard stuff for free. (That much for who is going to benefit from those new EU copyright laws anyhow - certainly not those "po' session hacks having to eke out a living ..." - they won't be any better off than before)

[JSngry]

... except for when it came out on those weirdass Boris Rose labels and such. And even then...those things were just so...blatant as to have thier own appeal. There wasn't one shred of legitimacy to them, not one shred! And htey were priced accordingly, at least in my part of the world.

If I remember those colorful Ray Avery mail order sales sheets from the early 80s correctly, they weren't priced THAT far below other, more "regular" LP reissue series.

And of course those "blatancy" complaints will then go for those "Sounds of Swing", "Bandstand", "Ajax", "Ajazz" etc. etc. LP series (featuring strictly STUDIO recordings, no airshots) too, right?

Yep. Don't think I bought any of those...what I did buy was Alamac, another wacky bootleg label of "unofficial" recordings.

And my Boris Rose stuff was always either in the cutout bins or on the sleeves for a couple of bucks less than regular albums.

Then again, I seem to remember getting on Ray Avery's mailing list and buying not too much from him because his prices were not favorable to what I could find by doing the legwork and hitting old dusty mom & pop shops.

But that, all of it, was in a different time, place, and market dynamic. I mean, I know some people still want something "real", some kind of "tangible product", but good lord, how rational is that, and how willing to be played for a fool are you willing to be to have that need met?

I'll give it to Cornhological Classics - they straight-up say here is what we do -you're going to get every released recording by Artist A from time Period B, and that's that. Period. You want meat, we got meat. You want a sandwich, go make it yourself.

These other guys...they sell you a sandwich and make you think that they made the bread themselves, grew the vegetables in their back yard, and made the mayo in their own kitchen. And charge you accordingly. Bullshit!

When and if some PD concern actually starts doing that (and I think a few actually have), then we can talk. Until then...BULLSHIT!

Again!

Use the internet for getting your cassette dubs, save your money, and maintain some self-respect!

Not sure why using the internet allows you to maintain self-respect. Surely the only way to do that is to refuse to purchase anything that infringes the copyright laws of wherever you live.

I've spend a fortune on legitimate recordings since 1970 (not sure how much of what I spent ended up in the creators' pockets, but...). But I've also made cassettes/CD-Rs of friends' LPs/CDs and of library copies. I've bought Andorran releases and, more recently, downloaded MIA recordings from the likes of Rapidshare.

So I have to throw my hands up and admit moral weakness.

You've maintained a balance, so good for you. You would not be one of the chumps.

But really...throwing up your hands...how'd they get in your stomach in the first place? Is English food really that bad?

You're just being realistic in today's world the way this world it is.

Really being realistic about today's world means not paying good money (hell, any money) for cheapass "product" such as these issues.

[Big Beat Steve]

You're just being realistic in today's world the way this world it is.

Really being realistic about today's world means not paying good money (hell, any money) for cheapass "product" such as these issues.

Well ... paying something like the equivalent of one "regularly priced" (and regularly produced??) CD for a set of FOUR to EIGHT CDs does indeed seem VERY realistic to me (limited - presentational and possibly soundwise - value for limited money ).

Fresh Sound and their pricing policy may be a borderline case in that respect, but given that Fresh Sound and Blue Moon, for example, do have the merit of covering uncharted reissue territory where no big corporations would EVER tread, there's nothing wrong with THAT segment of their product, therefore, IMO - needledrops or not (hey, how often remastering claims by legit reissuers really are alibi exercises?).

(Yeah, I still want some tangible product too, I am afraid )