POLL: Who Is Number 5?

[paul secor]

I don't care who was or wasn't influential, or who's # 5, but I will listen to "Immigration Blues" tomorrow - too tired tonight. I'm sure there'll be something interesting to hear.

[medjuck]

Are we talking importance or influence here? In the '60s and '70s it was obviously Trane. Then I thought it was Rollins for a while. Now I hear Shorter in a lot of new saxophonists. One can be great without being an influence (e.g. Art Tatum or Monk).

[flat5]

PLEASE...Listen to Prince Robinson play on/in Immigration Blues. I will not give up.

Chuck. are you pulling our appendages?

My copy:

Duke Ellington - The Private Collection 1924 \ Duke Ellington - The Private Collection - Vol 1\CD 1\13

The tenor plays eight bars of melody in the low register and sounds like he's a doubler fighting a borrowed leaky horn.

Hope I'm not out of line.

[Hardbopjazz]

What about very early Kenneth Gorelick when he played tenor?

After going to the National Jazz Museum in Harlem and getting to hear some live Chu Berry, this guy could play!!! Dying so young, what a loss to the jazz world.

[Larry Kart]

PLEASE...Listen to Prince Robinson play on/in Immigration Blues. I will not give up.

Chuck. are you pulling our appendages?

My copy:

Duke Ellington - The Private Collection 1924 \ Duke Ellington - The Private Collection - Vol 1\CD 1\13

The tenor plays eight bars of melody in the low register and sounds like he's a doubler fighting a borrowed leaky horn.

Hope I'm not out of line.

I have the same question. But assuming that Chuck isn't pulling our chain, I have two more questions:

1) Steve Lasker's liner notes to "Early Ellington" say that "The second reedman [on the "Immigration Blues" date] ... has never been positively identified by discographers".

2) If you are genuinely enamored of those eight bars on "Immigration Blues," why assume that what one hears there is unique to Robinson or whomever? A lot of jazz had been played on the saxophone by Dec. 29, 1926, and while my knowledge of recorded jazz of that era is certainly not comprehensive, I wouldn't be surprised if Robinson (or whoever) had stylistic predecessors.

[Larry Kart]

As for early Bechet versus early Armstrong, here they are in 1924:

Just speculating, but I would say that Bechet's arguably greater rhythmic fluidity at this point in their lives (Bechet age 27, Armstrong age 24) is mostly the result of Bechet's greater mastery of his instrument(s) -- he rides the soprano and the clarinet like a champion bronc buster -- while Armstrong's sense of where he wanted to get to as a soloist to was already a bit more long-lined/horizontal-dramatic that Bechet's. Another way to put it would be that Bechet's horns almost seem like literal extensions of his physical being and breath, while Armstrong is still playing the cornet, the way one might drive a car.

[JSngry]

Or even more basic than that - Bechet's instruments themselves were (and still are) easier to be linearly fluent on, simply due to their mechanical construction.

[Larry Kart]

Or even more basic than that - Bechet's instruments themselves were (and still are) easier to be linearly fluent on, simply due to their mechanical construction.

I was assuming that, even though I didn't say it.

[Pete C]

I'd say Ayler because Byas, Webster & Berry are pretty much extensions of the Hawkins tradition and Ayler was pretty much sui generis.

[Clunky]

PLEASE...Listen to Prince Robinson play on/in Immigration Blues. I will not give up.

ok listening to this right now ( I'd voted Shorter by the way). I presume that's Prince opening the proceedings with a growling like solo which on reflection does sound pretty "modern" for 1926. Lovely track BTW. Any particular players claimed him as an influence?

[miles65]

Of the 10 names to choose from I like Ben Webster most folowed by Chu Berry and Dexter Gordon. Not on the list: Don Byas, Stan Getz, Lucky Thompson, Paul Gonsalves. But me liking these players does not mean they are influencial. I read somewhere that at music schools saxophone pupils have to learn Gonsalves solo's by heart.

[Pete C]

I read somewhere that at music schools saxophone pupils have to learn Gonsalves solo's by heart.

I hope they don't have to learn that interminable overrated solo from Newport.

[Larry Kart]

I read somewhere that at music schools saxophone pupils have to learn Gonsalves solo's by heart.

I hope they don't have to learn that interminable overrated solo from Newport.

I recall that David Murray once orchestrated it. Be still my foolish heart.

[Pete C]

I absolutely love Gonsalves, so I find it sad that he's most remembered for an overlong grandstanding solo string of blues cliches that Duke made him repeat for years.

[johnlitweiler]

I'd say Ayler because Byas, Webster & Berry are pretty much extensions of the Hawkins tradition and Ayler was pretty much sui generis.

Number 5 Ben Webster admitted that Johnny Hodges was a primary influence on him. He sounds like it. The Lucky-Byas-Golson-Shepp-etc. line descends from Webster.

Chu Berry is a wonder in that Mosaic box. Gonsalves can sound like Berry stretching out. That's a compliment.

[Pete C]

Number 5 Ben Webster admitted that Johnny Hodges was a primary influence on him. He sounds like it.

I think he was referring to his ballad style that he developed while with Duke, when he worked alongside Hodges, rather than his earlier style. But in that case he's a tenor in the Bechet lineage via Hodges.

[BeBop]

Boots Randolph.

A bit more seriously, I'd have to go with Stan Getz. While he came out of Pres harmonically, he had a distinctive tone that many tried to emulate. And then he had the bossa thing that many others got into. (Even Hawk had a boss album.)

So thinking strictly in terms of influence ...

Dex influenced a few - Ricky Ford comes to mind. So did Wardell, one of the first to successfully blend Pres and Bird (...and a bit of Hawk, at times). Bit the list of Pres-influenced players goes on and on.

[Pete C]

Imagine if Wardell had lived...

[Teasing the Korean]

You are Number 6.

[flat5]

Zoot Sims had an influence on many players.

[Noj]

I haven't got the perspective to vote, but I love the recordings I have by all of the choices. Especially Wayne, Joe, and Stanley. And Hank. And Sonny. And Dexter. And Gene.

And Ben and Chu. And I'll probably dig Ayler too when I get there. And Zoot is great.

[JETman]

Excuse my ignorance, but who did Ayler influence???

[JSngry]

Coltrane, for one.

[jeffcrom]

Excuse my ignorance, but who did Ayler influence???

Ayler was one of those game-changing musicians whose influence extends beyond his instrument to an entire movement. He was a prime influence on the "energy" free jazz players. And he was, along with Cecil Taylor, one of the prime exemplars that jazz could be jazz without conventional tonality or regular pulse; as such he influenced not only young musicians like the AACM guys, but established musicians like Don Cherry, Jimmy Giuffre, and Paul Bley. But limiting it to tenor saxophonists, how about:

Peter Brotzmann

Pharoah Sanders

Ken Vandermark

David Murray

Evan Parker

Mats Gustafsson

Charles Gayle

John Gilmore

and maybe even John Coltrane toward the end.

Edit: Saw Jim's post just after I posted this.

Edited October 4, 2011 by jeffcrom

[Indestructible!]

Sorry all, I meant to put Stan Getz on the list instead of Stan Turrentine. Although, to be honest, I far prefer Turrentine over Getz... but I certainly recognize that in any discussion regarding "influential" that Getz likely influenced more players than Turrentine.

Chuck, I'm definitely going to check Prince out to try and hear what you're hearing.

I voted for Ayler, mainly for the reasons Jeff posted above. I do wonder though... did John Gilmore influence Ayler more than Ayler influenced Gilmore?