University of the Streets - NYC

[clifford_thornton]

From facebook, apparently a vocal disagreement with a pay-to-play clause (possibly obscured in the contract?) got a drummer punched in the face by the promoter's son... stitches and bruises later, he seems to be okay but the question of hostility at this particular club has been raised. I suggest that the word be put out about both this policy - $50 if the door minimum isn't made - as well as abusive behavior on the part of the club owners at the University of the Streets. Not cool.

An argument over the club claiming we owed them 50 bux resulted in kevin being slammed in the face with a set of keys ... luckily he's ok and getting stiched up.... but f**k university of the streets and the biz they are brewing.

[king ubu]

Always good to have a street-savvy son, I guess (I have none...)

Expected this to be a Bill Dixon thread... can you enlighten us non FB folks what this is about, please?

[clifford_thornton]

To be clear, the drummer was punched out by an unruly club-owner. I'd say the fault goes with the assault(er).

The University of the Streets is a NYC organization that has done music programs with the underserved and underrecognized since the late 1960s. However, it seems like the promoters are behaving pretty horribly towards the musicians.

[Ted O'Reilly]

...the underserved...

Whoops! Almost read that as "undeserved". They get more than enough support as it is.

[ValerieB]

this is a drag to hear. i've been there and it's most definitely a grass-roots kind of operation. there's a big need for it in the community and i hope it survives this ugly event.

[Leeway]

...the underserved...

Whoops! Almost read that as "undeserved". They get more than enough support as it is.

By "they" do you mean the musicians? I hope not.

[clifford_thornton]

The "Pay to Play" thing is a little too grass-roots if you ask me...

Albeit not uncommon I guess...

[Michael Weiss]

Can you post a link to where you found this?

[Chuck Nessa]

Here is the pic. This is copied from Facebook. Not sure how much I can get from there to here. The story seems to be that the band objected to paying the $50 fee (since the door minimum wasn't reached) and the owner's son hit the drummer with a fist full of keys.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Chuck Nessa

[Leeway]

The information I got is that a friend of the band was punched by the owner's son, not one of the band members. This is from a blog post by one of the band members. It was over the $50, pay-to-play clause (if there was one). The musicians involved are pretty well-known, at least in the free jazz community. Trying to play this music is a hard way to make a living.

[Leeway]

I see no reason to avoid names at this point, since this has gone public. From Tom Blancarte's blog:

From Tom Blancarte - "to all musicians in NYC who might be playing at University of the Streets in the East Village:"

"I just played there with Talibam!, Tim Dahl and Moppa Elliot, and when we were finished, the owner and her son told us that we owed them 50 dollars. When we told them we didn't owe them anything, her son punched my friend Kevin in the face with keys in his hand! He came close to losing his left eye! Please boycott this place, they are bad, bad people."

Who knows, there may be more to the story. Still, this violence is troubling. University of the Streets has given a venue to many Downtown and visiting free jazz musicians in New York City. A "lose-lose" situation for all involved. .

[JSngry]

True "pay to play" is where you pay no matter what the door is. This is more like...payback if you don't draw. Not entirely unfair if the terms are mutually understood & agreed to in advance.

Having said that, do you think anybody would have pulled this kind of shit on, say, Mingus?

There's a reason why some people carry guns. I myself have gotten paid on one or two gigs thanks to bandleaders who did.

Sure, that's ugly, but it's also reality. Sometimes it's play or get played.

[Leeway]

I don't know if it is "pay $50 and whatever you get from the door you keep" or "You didn't draw enough, so you have to pay $50 to the house for its costs." Either way, it ended badly.

I remember reading something about Dizzy; he always carried a knife, and sometimes used it to defend himself and his interests. People didn't mess with him. There was something in the thread on Charlie Parker in Chicago earlier today along the same lines, i.e., getting ripped off by a club owner. Some enduring traditions in jazz

[JSngry]

Me, I'll never find fault with true self-defense, no matter what the means, be it spiritual calmness or pulling a piece on some joker who aims to hurt you.

This Volunteered Slavery nonsense has gone on long enough. People will do what you let them get by with doing.

[ValerieB]

sounds like the "Barry Harris influence" has left the venue!!!!

[Tom Storer]

Tyshawn Sorey is one of those who angrily denounced the incident on Facebook. From the comments, it appears that many musicians are in agreement that they will not work at the place concerned. The word "boycott" was mentioned.

[Leeway]

Me, I'll never find fault with true self-defense, no matter what the means, be it spiritual calmness or pulling a piece on some joker who aims to hurt you.

This Volunteered Slavery nonsense has gone on long enough. People will do what you let them get by with doing.

In principle I agree with you. And instinctively I'm going to side with the musicians. However, there are a couple of possibilities here not mentioned.

1) the owner's son might have thought he was acting in his own self-defense, There is such a thing as "fighting words."

2) more likely, the owner's son might have thought that his mom (the owner) was either being threatened or disrespected. If someone is disrespecting my mom I'm going after them; very simple.

Still, like I said, bad all around. The owners lose musicians, musicians lose a venue. Let's see what plays out.

[JSngry]

I hear ya', but "fightin' words" as a literal concept is kinda Old West-y, and as much as I admire so many of the attitudes of that time and place, for the verbal to escalate to the physical is, for me, in this day and time, , going to have to have some sort of physical instigation playing out first.

Having said that, it's a good thing to know how to hurt somebody/defend yourself with somethings other than your fists or such, and disrespecting one's momma to her face is as good a time as any to whip 'em out.

OTOH, if mama's being loud and bitchy about not paying these soryy bastards one f-in' dime, I'm just going to do my best to get momma out the room before shit goes all the way left...

[fasstrack]

...club owners at the University of the Strts.

Don't believe everything you read. And please do not post hearsay as fact on a publicly viewed forum for jazz supporters. From personal experience: 1. the University is NOT a 'club', but a 5-story building with NYC expenses. Whoever said that is either purposely misleading or doesn't know shit from Shinola. The bldg. was owned by a very sweet individual named Mohammed. He was a devout Muslim who loved jazz and provided a home for musicians. He was a visionary. I played a gig for a while in '98. A musician was very strung out, a problem. No one else would hire him, but Mohammed made sure he had a gig and some hot food. Mohammed died and I don't know who-all owns the bldg. Don't know what went down w/the drummer, but this sounds like po' and well-meaning folks driven to each others' throats again. So methinks perhaps 'you've been bamboozled' a bit. Let's not be hanging judges sans facts

[AllenLowe]

"If someone is disrespecting my mom I'm going after them; very simple" This is a bad attitude and the sign of a dangerously short fuse. Shooting first and asking questions later is a good way to get people killed for nothing. My momma could defend herself, anyway,

Edited September 11, 2011 by AllenLowe

[Leeway]

"If someone is disrespecting my mom I'm going after them; very simple" This is a bad attitude and the sign of a dangerously short fuse. Shooting first and asking questions later is a good way to get people killed for nothing. My momma could defend herself, anyway,

My point was that is a highly emotional situation that gets beyond a business argument. The son might have felt his mother was being treated badly and reacted instinctively.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Leeway

[ValerieB]

"If someone is disrespecting my mom I'm going after them; very simple" This is a bad attitude and the sign of a dangerously short fuse. Shooting first and asking questions later is a good way to get people killed for nothing. My momma could defend herself, anyway,

My point was that is a highly emotional situation that gets beyond a business argument. The son might have felt his mother was being treated badly and reacted instinctively. And please don't psychoanalyze me.

"instinctively" = "short fuse"!!! no excuse for this behavior - sorry!

[bertrand]

1) Mohammed was indeed a wonderful person. I got to hang out there a few times when he was there (I saw George Braith once!) and he and his wife were charming hosts.

2) I know nothing about the new 'business structure'. I do not know what transpired, but the odds that the reason this assault was justified are slim to none, which is true of almost all assaults. I do want to hear the other side of the story.

Bertrand.

[AllenLowe]

Bertrand - did you say something about my Mama?

[fasstrack]

Weird that the OP seemed to do a 'drive-by'. Whatever. Let's the rest of this look into it more. We need places lhke that, especially a 5-story building where artists can self-produce. $50 is a small price for freedom. I figure if your vision is that strong why not go the extra mile to get $50 worth of asses in seats? That way everyone wins, nobody gets punched. Plus, if you line up a gig it ain't a bad idea to know the policy. If they don't tell, ask. That's on you. Just my 2c, and of course no excuse for the puncher. Hope they can move past it and make up though.