Sun Ra,

[Face of the Bass]

I like him, but no way would I put Sun Ra in the same category as Miles, Coltrane, Ellington and Monk!

I think Sun Ra benefited from a fascinating persona, which often outstripped the intrinsic musical value of his record output. I'm sure his shows were fun to go to, but that does not ensure a recorded legacy.

And like I said, I do like him, and have more than my share (yes, alas, more than 15) albums by him. There are clinkers enough in his discography to make the claim that "every" album is worthwhile a bit overly-optimistic. That was my original point.

To my ears he and Ellington produced the best big band music in jazz history. I think his Afro-futurist musings and costumes have caused many to dismiss him as a clown, but I stand by what I said. His music holds up as well as (and often better than) all the people I mentioned above. Further, his influence on the avant garde scene is considerable, to say the least.

[jeffcrom]

I like him, but no way would I put Sun Ra in the same category as Miles, Coltrane, Ellington and Monk!

I think Sun Ra benefited from a fascinating persona, which often outstripped the intrinsic musical value of his record output. I'm sure his shows were fun to go to, but that does not ensure a recorded legacy.

And like I said, I do like him, and have more than my share (yes, alas, more than 15) albums by him. There are clinkers enough in his discography to make the claim that "every" album is worthwhile a bit overly-optimistic. That was my original point.

Okay, except for a humorous response, I was not going to add anything else to this thread. But now I've got to.

I also would not put Ra in the pantheon of the greats you listed. His music is not at the Louis Armstrong/Charlie Parker, pinnacle-of-jazz-achievement level. But I rate him at just below that level.

I hereby repeat my statement, and I fully stand by it:

"The thing is, every Sun Ra album is different, and every one I've heard is worthwhile."

Notice that I do not claim to have heard every Sun Ra album. I haven't bought any of the massive live box sets that have come out in recent years, partly because I have so much Ra already. I just did a quick count; I've got 23 LPs (10 of them original Saturns) and 52 CDs, counting two-LP or two-CD sets as one.

And every one of them is different, and every one is worthwhile! Some of the points made above are totally accurate - many of these albums have forgettable passages, or segments that don't work due to the lack of the visual element. And when I say that every album is different, I don't mean in every respect. Listen to a dozen live albums and you'll get the "Space Chants Medley" over and over again. But each album has something about it that's different from any other Ra album. And every one has at least one of what Gil Evans called "the magic moment."

I totally understand where you're coming from, though. Sunny's music is flawed, sloppy, inconsistent, sometimes maddening. But there's something magic about it that transcends all of that. Our friend John Litweiler said something in The Freedom Principle that has stuck with me since I read the book 25 years ago:

"Be warned: Sun Ra is a prophet, and you mock or scoff at him at your peril."

I love that. And it seems about right to me - Ra was a prophet, with all that implies: he was a mixture of self-delusion, bullshit, showmanship, and sometimes an insight beyond what most of us can conceive. I can't hear "The Magic City" or "A Fireside Chat With Lucifer" without thinking that Sun Ra had a handle on something special. And for what it's worth, I'm the least mystical person you'll ever meet, except when it comes to musical matters.

Again, I understand if someone doesn't "get" Ra, or doesn't care to enter his world. But if you enter that world, you open yourself to some magical experiences.

The thing is, every Sun Ra album is different, and every one I've heard is worthwhile.

[AllenLowe]

I'm with Jeff on this; and by the way, though I think he oversells his points, I would recommend Graham Locke's book Blutopia with it's intererting study of Su Ra.

[Teasing the Korean]

I must have 25 or so of his albums by now. I think that his 50s and 60s albums are all pretty solid, though there is some stylistic variation. The twofer CD of "Fate in a Pleasant Mood" and "When the Sun Comes Out" is one that I keep coming back to. Agree that if you're into straight ahead stuff, "Jazz in Silhouette" and "Futuristic Sounds" may be good starting places. I also agree with the earlier comment that virtually every Sun Ra album you will stumble across will have some amazing track that you've never heard before. His 70s stuff is dodgy. There are some good titles during this period though, like "My Brother the Wind, Part II."

[Face of the Bass]

I'll put it this way: if somebody burst into my house, put a gun to my head and said that I had to get rid of every recording that I had by every artist, except one, I would save my collection in this order:

1. Miles Davis

2. Sun Ra

3. John Coltrane

4. Ornette Coleman

5. Cecil Taylor

6. Charlie Parker

7. Steve Lacy

8. Thelonious Monk

9. Anthony Braxton

10. Pharoah Sanders

11. Charles Mingus

12. Duke Ellington

And so forth. Dude could have my Louis Armstrong recordings, as I've sold most of those anyway after an aborted attempt to make myself like something that I just wasn't digging. I keep the Hot Five & Sevens around out of a sense of obligation more than anything else. Everything else has been listened to and then resold.

[AllenLowe]

thinking about it, I really do think that Sun Ra belongs in that Pantheon - here's what I wrote in my unpublished book on 50's Jazz:

"The pianist Herman Blount, self-named Sun Ra, a man of vague spiritual but clearly defined musical goals, led a band in Chicago in the middle 1950s that, all by itself, and in a strangely isolated yet universal manner, pointed, with breezy confidence, the way to the future of jazz. The album Supersonic, which they made in 1956, should have heralded a new day for the music and provoked a meaningful critical dialog, though it’s not surprising that it did not. Aside from the fact that it was poorly distributed, it would have required a seer to recognize how prophetic a work it was, how accurately it (and Sun Ra, who composed everything the band played), with uncanny and ingenious foresight, mapped out all that would befall jazz in the next ten years.

There was the exotic modalism of India, a piece with a single chord backed with hand percussion and desert-sand mallets, stretching itself out and revealing, with meditative patience, its from-the-crypt secrets; the freebop of Super Blonde, with its dissonant and dynamically compressed chorus, and theme full of unlikely melodic leaps; the leader’s piano solo piece Advice to Medics, played on an electric piano, not to mention his solos throughout the album, packed as they were with clashing tones, characterized by a deliberate and highly unusual (for its time) discontinuity, and modified by more recognizable (if still dissonant) triadically based progressions, all delivered like the work of a slightly dysfunctional space age cocktail pianist; the deliberately outward-bound solos of the trumpeter Art Hoyle, who was toying with non-tonality and with breaking the trumpet’s own sound barriers, all the while suggesting more conventional bebop motifs; the claustrophobic chromatic harmonies of El Is A Sound of Joy, broken up by sudden whole tones and voiced, prophetically, like a post-modernist homage a Ellington; and the ironic (but not tongue-in-cheek) romanticism of Springtime in Chicago, less a send up of the while idea of the emotion-soaked ballad than a happy celebration of it’s cheaper and cheesier aspects."

[Face of the Bass]

That's good stuff, Allen. I think that 1950s stuff ages really well...actually, all of Sun Ra's stuff from the late 1950s through the mid-to-late 1960s ages well. I don't think the band was ever quite the same after Ronnie Boykins left, but there are some good albums from the 1970s too. (I've never really been able to get into his 80's material, though.)

Anyway, there is no doubt that there is a glut of Sun Ra recordings out there, but the man was an absolutely brilliant musician, composer and bandleader. In terms of critical recognition, he might be the most underrated American musician of the twentieth century.

For those interested, I think Szwed's biography of Ra ranks as one of the best jazz bios ever written, IMO.

[Hot Ptah]

I have never quite understand comments about how some decade of Sun Ra's recordings is not as good as earlier decades. To me, he recorded much fine music in every decade, up to his death. My personal opinion is that his 1960s recordings are the most inconsistent in terms of sheerly enjoyable listening.

[kh1958]

I have never quite understand comments about how some decade of Sun Ra's recordings is not as good as earlier decades. To me, he recorded much fine music in every decade, up to his death. My personal opinion is that his 1960s recordings are the most inconsistent in terms of sheerly enjoyable listening.

I completely agree--his appearances at the Caravan of Dreams in 1985 and 1986 were spectacular. They had a pretty nice piano there and it was very audible in the mix--that was amazing to hear his extensive piano features in the eight sets that I saw. And that was John Gilmore on tenor. On the last night they were there, I think it was, Gilmore must have been having teeth (?) problems or something, because most of the evening he was just playing his drum, not playing tenor--finally he picked up the tenor to solo--I was floored, he erupted with a solo on par with Dancing Shadows/Thoughts Under a Blue Light--that was the strongest tenor solo I've ever heard in person. After the last weekend, the band member who sold me their records said they were going to perform in San Antonio on Monday--I surely wanted to follow the band there but stupidly went to work instead, missing my last chance to hear Sun Ra.

[Face of the Bass]

Maybe it is my ingrained prejudice against 80s music in general. I've never really tried to hear Miles's music from the 80s either, except for Aura. The few 80s discs of Sun Ra's that I have--At the Village Vanguard, for instance, which might actually be from the 1990s--were relatively disappointing to me when I first heard them, but that was now several years ago.

[kh1958]

Maybe it is my ingrained prejudice against 80s music in general. I've never really tried to hear Miles's music from the 80s either, except for Aura. The few 80s discs of Sun Ra's that I have--At the Village Vanguard, for instance, which might actually be from the 1990s--were relatively disappointing to me when I first heard them, but that was now several years ago.

At the Village Vanguard is not a good one, it's post-stroke.

Mayan Temples is the one to get first from that era--well performed and recorded, and including just about every aspect of his playing.

[jeffcrom]

Maybe it is my ingrained prejudice against 80s music in general. I've never really tried to hear Miles's music from the 80s either, except for Aura. The few 80s discs of Sun Ra's that I have--At the Village Vanguard, for instance, which might actually be from the 1990s--were relatively disappointing to me when I first heard them, but that was now several years ago.

At the Village Vanguard is not a good one, it's post-stroke.

Mayan Temples is the one to get first from that era--well performed and recorded, and including just about every aspect of his playing.

Okay, I stand corrected. When I made my "every album is worthwhile" statement, I had forgotten about At the Village Vanguard. Not very worthwhile. Destination Unknown on Enja is also post-stroke, and it's much better, in spite of the fact that John Gilmore was sick and didn't make that tour.

But yeah, Mayan Temples is the one to get from the 90's.

[Hot Ptah]

Maybe it is my ingrained prejudice against 80s music in general. I've never really tried to hear Miles's music from the 80s either, except for Aura. The few 80s discs of Sun Ra's that I have--At the Village Vanguard, for instance, which might actually be from the 1990s--were relatively disappointing to me when I first heard them, but that was now several years ago.

I must comment that I do not think that Sun Ra's 1980s recordings are at all part of any trend or style common to 1980s music generally. He was always unique, apart from any time he was working in.

[jazzbo]

I don't know. . . I confess I never got into the Fletcher Henderson-swing stuff Sun Ra material at all. I take it off the bit stream every time I start one. And a lot of the 'seventies noisey freak out material is just treading water going nowhere sounding to me. There's so much Sun Ra to collect, and I keep collecting it, that I skip those blocks of recordings.

Hans, the two Delmark cds. . . I think you'd really like them, and you should also like the sound. They're two of the last Sun Ra recordings I'd keep if I had to give away most all my Ra.

[Hot Ptah]

I don't know. . . I confess I never got into the Fletcher Henderson-swing stuff Sun Ra material at all. I take it off the bit stream every time I start one. And a lot of the 'seventies noisey freak out material is just treading water going nowhere sounding to me. There's so much Sun Ra to collect, and I keep collecting it, that I skip those blocks of recordings.

Hans, the two Delmark cds. . . I think you'd really like them, and you should also like the sound. They're two of the last Sun Ra recordings I'd keep if I had to give away most all my Ra.

To each their own. I really like the Fletcher Henderson and Duke Ellington covers. I think that the best recorded versions are on "Unity", which is unfortunately on the Horo label. In concert, I found that swing material to be very exciting.

There were many Sun Ra 1970s recordings which did not involve noisy freak out material. Cosmos, Lanquidity, the two solo piano albums on IAI, the three Horo albums, and several others, had a lot of focused, melodic material.

[jazzbo]

I know, I have many 'seventies Ra discs, but I've avoided many and removed a number from my collection that I just am not interested in.

And I'm not surprised others like the Henderson-Ellington material, but it does nothing for me. At all.

Edited August 12, 2011 by jazzbo

[Chuck Nessa]

I'm with Lon on the Henderson-Ellington stuff. I understand the function of these pieces in concert, I just don't need to hear them on recordings.

[medjuck]

Co-incidentally I've just been listening to At the Horseshoe Tavern which presents the music from 3 different nights in 1978 on 9 discs. (There's a 10th disc with an interview.) I was present one of the nights and these cds really bring back memories. He did some Henderson-Ellington stuff each evening but usually began with a percussion group and ended with singing.

[Hot Ptah]

Co-incidentally I've just been listening to At the Horseshoe Tavern which presents the music from 3 different nights in 1978 on 9 discs. (There's a 10th disc with an interview.) I was present one of the nights and these cds really bring back memories. He did some Henderson-Ellington stuff each evening but usually began with a percussion group and ended with singing.

The Horseshoe Tavern discs are interesting to me because I saw the Arkestra on the night after the September, 1978, performances in that set, and they sounded quite different than they had the night before at the Horseshoe Tavern. I have a tape of the performance on the night after, which I taped off the radio, and have confirmed this difference. The Arkestra could be quite versatile.

[Leeway]

I just realize that no one has mentioned The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra! On Savoy, reissued by Denon. This is a fantastic disc that feaures the wonderful variety that he and his band were capable of and some really great piano playing by Sonny. This would actually be a great starter album! Hell, it might even change your mind Leeway! Sounding damn good over here tonight!

I have it and I like it, but I actually prefer some of the material from the later 60s and early 70s, definitely including the Moog stuff.

I'll put it this way: if somebody burst into my house, put a gun to my head and said that I had to get rid of every recording that I had by every artist, except one, I would save my collection in this order:

1. Miles Davis

2. Sun Ra

3. John Coltrane

4. Ornette Coleman

5. Cecil Taylor

6. Charlie Parker

7. Steve Lacy

8. Thelonious Monk

9. Anthony Braxton

10. Pharoah Sanders

11. Charles Mingus

12. Duke Ellington

And so forth. Dude could have my Louis Armstrong recordings, as I've sold most of those anyway after an aborted attempt to make myself like something that I just wasn't digging. I keep the Hot Five & Sevens around out of a sense of obligation more than anything else. Everything else has been listened to and then resold.

I love your list. It wouldn't be my list, but everyone should do one to get their bearings (would make a fun thread). Mine would not even include Sun Ra. Just off the top of my head:

John Coltrane

Steve Lacy

Anthony Braxton

Cecil Taylor

Evan Parker

Miles Davis

Peter Brotzmann

John Butcher

Charlie Parker

Art Ensemble/Roscoe Mitchell

On any given day, the order might get reshuffled a bit, but it would be a while before we reached Sun Ra.

As for the claims of prophet etc, I just don't buy that. There are some very interesting socio-political aspects to Sun Ra, but I think that aspect has been oversold.

[Face of the Bass]

I just realize that no one has mentioned The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra! On Savoy, reissued by Denon. This is a fantastic disc that feaures the wonderful variety that he and his band were capable of and some really great piano playing by Sonny. This would actually be a great starter album! Hell, it might even change your mind Leeway! Sounding damn good over here tonight!

I have it and I like it, but I actually prefer some of the material from the later 60s and early 70s, definitely including the Moog stuff.

I'll put it this way: if somebody burst into my house, put a gun to my head and said that I had to get rid of every recording that I had by every artist, except one, I would save my collection in this order:

1. Miles Davis

2. Sun Ra

3. John Coltrane

4. Ornette Coleman

5. Cecil Taylor

6. Charlie Parker

7. Steve Lacy

8. Thelonious Monk

9. Anthony Braxton

10. Pharoah Sanders

11. Charles Mingus

12. Duke Ellington

And so forth. Dude could have my Louis Armstrong recordings, as I've sold most of those anyway after an aborted attempt to make myself like something that I just wasn't digging. I keep the Hot Five & Sevens around out of a sense of obligation more than anything else. Everything else has been listened to and then resold.

I love your list. It wouldn't be my list, but everyone should do one to get their bearings (would make a fun thread). Mine would not even include Sun Ra. Just off the top of my head:

John Coltrane

Steve Lacy

Anthony Braxton

Cecil Taylor

Evan Parker

Miles Davis

Peter Brotzmann

John Butcher

Charlie Parker

Art Ensemble/Roscoe Mitchell

On any given day, the order might get reshuffled a bit, but it would be a while before we reached Sun Ra.

As for the claims of prophet etc, I just don't buy that. There are some very interesting socio-political aspects to Sun Ra, but I think that aspect has been oversold.

Nice list! When I made up mine, I kept changing it to get Steve Lacy higher and higher...I suspect in another month he will be higher than I have him listed. A number of other ones you listed here, particularly Brotzmann, Art Ensemble, and Evan Parker, would be close to making my list and might make it some days depending on my mood.

[jostber]

When we talk about large box sets that Transparency has released in later years, this new one is quite comprehensive:

The Eternal Myth Revealed

More on this interesting box:

http://thekey.xpn.org/2011/06/the-eternal-myth-revealed-volume-1-a-20-cd-box-set-of-sun-ra-rarities-due-in-july/

[Teasing the Korean]

I have never quite understand comments about how some decade of Sun Ra's recordings is not as good as earlier decades. To me, he recorded much fine music in every decade, up to his death. My personal opinion is that his 1960s recordings are the most inconsistent in terms of sheerly enjoyable listening.

Sun Ra is one of only a handful of artists whose albums I will buy blindly. I have accumulated his albums as I've encountered them, and not in any sort of strategic manner. Maybe I have been lucky and simply stumbled across the right ones, but among the 60s albums I have are:

Futuristic Sounds Of

Fate in a Pleasant Mood

When the Sun Comes Out

Secrets of the Sun

Monorails and Satellites

Atlantis

The Magic City

Pictures of Infinity

My Brother the Wind Part II (1969-70)

I am being very literal in defining the 1960s, because the 60s don't really begin until 1964.

Based on what I have, I will agree with you that there is stylistic variety among his 1960s albums, but I wouldn't call them inconsistent; on the contrary, I keep coming back to these and find them fascinating. If he made bad albums in the 60s, I have missed them.

His 70s albums are for me hit and miss. "Lanquidity" is amazing.

As for the 1980s, I have a hard time buying anything by anyone dating from that most dreaded of decades, and rarely waste the shelf space on 80s albums even if I find them in the dollar bin. I'm sure I must be missing out on some good stuff, but I do have aesthetic principles.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Teasing the Korean

[Teasing the Korean]

Incidentally, if you want to hear a Les Baxter track that sounds uncannily like Sun Ra, check out "Reverberasia" from his album "Skins." It comes in around the 19:36 mark:

[Hot Ptah]

Incidentally, if you want to hear a Les Baxter track that sounds uncannily like Sun Ra, check out "Reverberasia" from his album "Skins." It comes in around the 19:36 mark:

That is fascinating to me. Thanks for posting it.