Former Member bill barton

[alankin]

There's a difference between forgiving what someone has done to you and forgiving what someone did to someone else.

[Chuck Nessa]

Looks like I'm shorter than Lon.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Chuck Nessa

[Dave James]

Listen, I grapple with a lot of issues with organized religion. But forgiveness is a cornerstone of Christianity, you can't just say "we'll forgive this but not that." And it's not just forgiving and then washing your hands. It's forgiving and helping on all sides of the sin-issue.

It doesn't matter I guess because agnostics are free to pick and choose, and even "Christians" who make a lot of noise aobut holiness are full of hatred and venom and the last thing they really do is forgive. I'm just putting it out there. I believe it is best for all concerned to struggle to forgive. I just didn't feel that castigating Face the Bass for harboring the love of friendship and brotherhood in his heart was something that can be just lying there. I applaud Face's statement.

This isn't easy at all. This is a broad community and I'm sure we might be very shocked to see hard investigative results of the private lives and doings of many here. I'm not sure what we should be saying and talking here but it seems so far we're reasonably certain that Bill Barton is involved in the investigation of these crimes as a possible perpetrator. And really, that's all we know, if we know that. I'll say no more other than I wish the best for all involved in this as victims and any who may be falsely accused.

Well said, Lon.

[Face of the Bass]

There's a difference between forgiving what someone has done to you and forgiving what someone did to someone else.

Right, tonight my wife asked me how I would feel if this had happened to one of our children. I'd feel an anger and a hatred that would be difficult to control, I am sure.

But the thing is, this didn't happen to my children, and I don't know any of the victims in this case. On the other hand, I do know Bill. So what I am forced to think about in this case is the possibility that someone for whom I had much respect doing something truly awful.

And even though he didn't do anything to me, I think I am being called upon to forgive. Because when something like this happens, all of society reacts in horror, thus the responses that we've seen on here over the last couple of days.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the worst kind of hell in the world has to be the one that you make for yourself. The worst feeling would not be to be wrongly accused of something atrocious, but to be justly accused. That is to say, to do something so vile that all the world rightly turns away in disgust, your friends abandon you, and you are truly alone. That, for me, is the worst kind of punishment I could possibly imagine. And that's something that he will have to deal with, assuming all this stuff we are reading about on the Internet is true.

For me, the only meaningful forgiveness is the one that hasn't been earned, but that is extended anyway, because of the common bond of our shared humanity. That's what I have been thinking about today, not Bill as some monstrous "other" outcast from society, but Bill the human being. To be honest, I can't understand the compulsion for pedophilia; it makes no sense to me. But I think some of the other emotions that are probably prevalent in his mind right now--self-loathing, sense of doom, raw fear, anger, etc.--are emotions that I know only too well.

[Chuck Nessa]

I have been mini-obsessed with this since I knew about it. Many emotions flood the brain and...........

No words.

[Chuck Nessa]

I thank you for the posting. Since he's an old "friend" and is on my promo mailing list, I'd have wondered why my emails and packages went unanswered.

My emotions are not your responsibility.

[papsrus]

... For me, the only meaningful forgiveness is the one that hasn't been earned, but that is extended anyway, because of the common bond of our shared humanity. ...

I was going to post this in response to Lon's thoughtful post above because he talks about forgiveness in the Christian sense. But even more broadly, doesn't forgiveness require something of the sinner, too?

If someone does these sorts of terrible things and shows no remorse or regret, what meaning does forgiveness have? OTOH, if someone seeks forgiveness, that seems like an entirely different thing.

But, ah ... I don't really know. Obviously, like everyone, struggling with the idea that someone here could be involved in such monstrous acts.

Thanks for posting your thoughts, Face.

[sheldonm]

...yow, what a mess....like everyone else, hoping this is not the case.....if so, very sad.

Edited August 11, 2011 by sheldonm

[AllenLowe]

I'm in favor of the whole forgiveness thing - I think ultimately it helps both internally and externally - it doesn't mean you don't seek justice or punishment or that you associate with the person who is the object of the forgiveness - I think it means you don't let it consume you to the point of warping your whole world view.

[alocispepraluger102]

i have long felt that this board was composed of the most honest, sensitive, thoughtful, intelligent, and articulate folks anywhere.

now i know it.

[sheldonm]

nice post, agree with you.

I'm in favor of the whole forgiveness thing - I think ultimately it helps both internally and externally - it doesn't mean you don't seek justice or punishment or that you associate with the person who is the object of the forgiveness - I think it means you don't let it consume you to the point of warping your whole world view.

[jazzbo]

I was going to post this in response to Lon's thoughtful post above because he talks about forgiveness in the Christian sense. But even more broadly, doesn't forgiveness require something of the sinner, too?

If someone does these sorts of terrible things and shows no remorse or regret, what meaning does forgiveness have? OTOH, if someone seeks forgiveness, that seems like an entirely different thing.

Absolutely James. Remorse, regret, reparations. And if there's a maker, making peace with that being. All sorts of things enter into this forgiveness realm.

I agree with what Allen wrote above as well.

I can only say that in in my own life forgiveness has been a powerful force, both forgiving AND being forgiven. And I've seen it in play in the lives of others as well, I've seen it change the course of a life.

Face, thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

Edited August 11, 2011 by jazzbo

[Jim Alfredson]

This is incredibly shocking.

And I hate to say this but it freaks me out that we are friends on FB and he could see pictures of my kids. I think it might be time to take all that stuff down and just use FB as a business outlet.

[Chuck Nessa]

Your biggest nightmare might be across the street or in your family. RELAX about this and be on guard.

[Aggie87]

This is incredibly shocking.

And I hate to say this but it freaks me out that we are friends on FB and he could see pictures of my kids. I think it might be time to take all that stuff down and just use FB as a business outlet.

I am FB friends with him as well, but I'm not going to let it change things for me. I may need to be more selective about who I am friends with, though.

[7/4]

yes, shocking indeed.

I know people who were abused as children and they say therapy has helped them. If you've been a victim of sexual abuse, get help too before you make a negative impact on the lives of those around you. If you don't think you need help, you may not realize how sick you are until it's too late.

[RDK]

This is incredibly shocking.

And I hate to say this but it freaks me out that we are friends on FB and he could see pictures of my kids. I think it might be time to take all that stuff down and just use FB as a business outlet.

Ah crap, Jim, I didn't even think about that! You're right - and I post pics of my girls on FB all the time.

But I refuse to let the "bad stuff" of our world outweigh the good. I've made too many new friends on FB - and recently met and dined with our own Big Al as a result of our FB posts - and I'm not about to leave that behind by being overly concerned about the bad apples out there. But hell, it does make one think...

This is incredibly shocking.

And I hate to say this but it freaks me out that we are friends on FB and he could see pictures of my kids. I think it might be time to take all that stuff down and just use FB as a business outlet.

I am FB friends with him as well, but I'm not going to let it change things for me. I may need to be more selective about who I am friends with, though.

That's true, but honestly you guys on this board are about the "stranger-est" guys among my FB friends. That is, though I've known some of you for over a decade now, I've only met a handful of you in person. Chuck's very right about this: the threat's probably greater from those across the street or in one's own family than from a random acquaintance brought together by a shared hobby.

[ghost of miles]

strangely the seattle area funeral homes now carry a listing for a professional engineer , william barton, 77 years old.

i'm quite sure this is not our bill.

Hard to find words while I thought about this thread's news off and on throughout the day. Aloc's earlier, pre-link comment now seems strangely prescient; our idea of a poster liked and respected by many in this and other online jazz communities has died, or at the very least been supplanted by something deeply troubling. Like Chuck said, there's no easy way for dealing with something like this; "our Bill" was an amiable online reflection of a human being, and for those who sustained any kind of friendship with him, it's not unnatural to simultaneously feel absolute revulsion and disgust, and at the same time feel pain that such a person might have ultimately done so much harm to him or herself as well as inflicting such terrible harm upon the vulnerable children exploited by this network. People will proceed at emotional paces determined by their own life experiences--I don't think that you can prescribe a right way and a wrong way to react to this kind of revelation.

There's a thread about this at JazzCorner right now as well, with some thoughtful comments and related stories from posters there.

Edited August 11, 2011 by ghost of miles

[brownie]

As a non religion-inclined person, the only compassion I feel about the whole thing goes to the children who were abused in this obscene and harmful operation

Most of them (if not all) will suffer for the rest of their life!

No compassion whatsoever for the perpetrators!

[mikeweil]

I think forgiveness should be unconditional, but it makes a lot more sense if the perpetrator shows some sign of remorse.

As frightening as it is, Chuck is right when he says "Your biggest nightmare might be across the street or in your family" - I happen to know too many people that experienced some kind of abuse. Although an internet community is not as close, it was shocking for me to read this, words almost fail me. We do not know what might exist below the surface, this is what is so unpredictable about the human condition ...

i have long felt that this board was composed of the most honest, sensitive, thoughtful, intelligent, and articulate folks anywhere.

Indeed - this discussion really moves me.

[Jazzmoose]

I think forgiveness should be unconditional, but it makes a lot more sense if the perpetrator shows some sign of remorse.

Well, that's a start. I'm not a Christian, but I was brought up as one, and the first step for forgiveness is asking for it. Whether or not this is something that I could personally forgive is another matter.

[jazzbo]

I think forgiveness should be unconditional, but it makes a lot more sense if the perpetrator shows some sign of remorse.

Well, that's a start. I'm not a Christian, but I was brought up as one, and the first step for forgiveness is asking for it. Whether or not this is something that I could personally forgive is another matter.

It always amazes me what is learnt as "Christianity." I certainly never was taught that "asking for it" is the first step. I was taught to forgive without being asked for forgiveness.

Anyway, this is a very hard thing for a human being to forgive. I'm afraid to examine and really feel the scope of this. I really can feel deeply for all the victims of course, and can feel despair that anyone could initiate something like this.

[Van Basten II]

This is incredibly shocking.

And I hate to say this but it freaks me out that we are friends on FB and he could see pictures of my kids. I think it might be time to take all that stuff down and just use FB as a business outlet.

I never thought it was a good idea at the first place to show parts of your private life on a web site (especially pictures of your friends and family , that said if you never had a problem with this before, there is no reason to stop right now, if you start living your life in fuction of potentials pedophile, rapist or any danger that may loom out there , you're moving into a slippery slope

[Face of the Bass]

Last night I was thinking about how I got to know Bill several years ago, through the Internet. I posted on another site and he sent me a pm, and then we were emailing each other. He sent me CD-Rs of the entire Roland Kirk Mercury set, and it really opened my ears to something new. I started listening to his radio program, and he was the one who got me into Sun Ra, after he played "Lanquidity." Last night I read a Sun Ra interview from the 1960s where he says the following:

So actually, if I was ruling, I wouldn't let the people talk about freedom. I wouldn't let the people talk about freedom, I wouldn't let them fight for it, I wouldn't let them speak of it...I wouldn't let them talk about peace, I wouldn't let them picket for it, I wouldn't let them have anything to do with peace. Because the whole thing is very simple: they're free when they're dead, and they're at rest, and at peace when they're dead. It actually says so: Rest in peace.

I don't know what else I want to say. I may be thinking about this too much...

[.:.impossible]

Jim, I had the same initial reaction and, like Lon, am afraid to really truly think about this whole thing. Chuck gave me the same advice that he gave you. As parents, we can't live in fear, but we must be on guard. Always. I know I have been hugging my daughter with just hint of a strange new emotion these past few days.

It's not Bill that I am suddenly afraid of, but the unknown that I so naively thought I knew.