Artists whose style of playing changed over their career.

[fasstrack]

Last week I saw Pat Martino live. Then next day I pulled out my Pat Martino recordings. Pat's style of playing changed so much from the 60s to today. In fact if you didn't know it was Martino you would believe it was two different guitar players. Those that listen to Martino, due you agree that his playing style is so different today then it was in his early career?

Can anyone think of any other musicians that their styles changed dramatically?

Speaking as a guitarist and a jazz player generally I don't think Pat really changed at all. I heard him right at the beginning of his comeback (ca. 1984)and it was as if nothing had happened to him. Pretty remarkable. I think he changed some of the trappings, like switching to a solid-body. It sounds like his touch lightened some and that he might have switched to a lighter gauge string. But if you really listen his sound was always bass-heavy and dark, and still is. The content and concepts---the approach, and I won't go into all the details here---though relearned reveals no radical difference to me.

[Christiern]

Dizzy Gillespie used to sound like Roy Eldridge.

That was the very young Dizzy, before he matured into what we now think of as his style, another sort of "change". Similarly the Four Brothers tenormen all sounded vaguely Lesterish as young musicians in the Herman band, before they established their distinctive Getz or Sims or Cohn styles - not to say that each didn't go on evolving in these styles over the rest of their careers.

I didn't know that there was an age limit on this question. Fact is that Dizzy's work could have been mis-identified as Roy's at one point (when he appeared on Hampton's Victor session, for example).

[Larry Kart]

Last week I saw Pat Martino live. Then next day I pulled out my Pat Martino recordings. Pat's style of playing changed so much from the 60s to today. In fact if you didn't know it was Martino you would believe it was two different guitar players. Those that listen to Martino, due you agree that his playing style is so different today then it was in his early career?

Can anyone think of any other musicians that their styles changed dramatically?

Speaking as a guitarist and a jazz player generally I don't think Pat really changed at all. I heard him right at the beginning of his comeback (ca. 1984)and it was as if nothing had happened to him. Pretty remarkable. I think he changed some of the trappings, like switching to a solid-body. It sounds like his touch lightened some and that he might have switched to a lighter gauge string. But if you really listen his sound was always bass-heavy and dark, and still is. The content and concepts---the approach, and I won't go into all the details here---though relearned reveals no radical difference to me.

No radical difference to me, either.

OTOH, though I'm not aware of any recorded evidence of this, I did hear Tal Farlow in a club late in his career and was astonished by the increase in fluidity and timbral shading in his playing. He always had been a favorite, but this was Tatum-esque, almost more than my mind could absorb in real time.

BTW, I'm aware that on some of his recordings for Concord, Tal had time problems. All I can say was that he sure didn't on these nights. One wonders if, like Raney, Tal had significant hearing loss, which of course could really screw you up time-wise, and either managed to make an adjustment or got hearing aids.

[BillF]

On the subject of "change", I think we should also mention that musicians often - particularly nowadays - have a repertoire of styles they can call upon, depending on the company, sort of band and occasion. I always describe Britain's Alan Barnes as a chameleon musician. He can slip so easily from Phil Woods to Hodges to Paul Desmond, not to mention that he'll turn up at gigs with baritone and clarinet, as well as his usual alto.

[jazzbo]

Jerry Garcia had to similarly relearn a lot of guitar after a stroke and he doesn't sound radically different afterwards to me.

Thelonious Monk's piano slowly but radically evolved in my opinion.

I remember the not-often-enough-heard-from Jim R. writing that Joe Pass' style had changed radically. I really haven't been familiar enough with his entire work to say that is true, but I trust Jim.

Edited July 29, 2011 by jazzbo

[J.A.W.]

Martino had brain surgery in 1980 and as a result completely forgot how to play. He had to learn it all over again, which led to a change of style.

Last week I saw Pat Martino live. Then next day I pulled out my Pat Martino recordings. Pat's style of playing changed so much from the 60s to today. In fact if you didn't know it was Martino you would believe it was two different guitar players. Those that listen to Martino, due you agree that his playing style is so different today then it was in his early career?

Can anyone think of any other musicians that their styles changed dramatically?

Speaking as a guitarist and a jazz player generally I don't think Pat really changed at all. I heard him right at the beginning of his comeback (ca. 1984)and it was as if nothing had happened to him. Pretty remarkable. I think he changed some of the trappings, like switching to a solid-body. It sounds like his touch lightened some and that he might have switched to a lighter gauge string. But if you really listen his sound was always bass-heavy and dark, and still is. The content and concepts---the approach, and I won't go into all the details here---though relearned reveals no radical difference to me.

No radical difference to me, either.

Maybe not. I stopped listening to Martino after his first few albums (El Hombre, Strings!) because I didn't really like the music. My earlier statement was based on articles I've read on Martino, not on listening to his post-1980 albums. I should have made that clear.

Edited July 29, 2011 by J.A.W.

[Jim R]

Thanks for the kind words, Lon. I'll trust you that you trust me, because my aging memory is failing me here as to exactly what I said. Maybe my observation was that Joe's style trended more toward chord/melody playing as years went on. Chances are he probably always had that at his disposal, but his earlier work tended to be in ensembles, where he emphasized his single-line playing. Also, his conception- especially during the onslaught () of his Pablo recordings as a sideman- seemed to me to become a bit more simple (and predictable) rhymically... oriented more toward swing than bebop. I think he got more and more used to playing in a more relaxed swing style, playing behind the beat more, and phrasing less and less like a bebopper.

I agree with those that have suggested that Pat Martino's playing has not changed significantly from his pre-illness years.

Unless we focus on significant changes in style/sound, I think the possibilities for discussion here are almost endless.

[Dave James]

Gotta go with Charlie Mariano. Bop to post-bop to jazz fusion to world music during the five decades that encapsulated his recording career.

[fasstrack]

OTOH, though I'm not aware of any recorded evidence of this, I did hear Tal Farlow in a club late in his career and was astonished by the increase in fluidity and timbral shading in his playing. He always had been a favorite, but this was Tatum-esque, almost more than my mind could absorb in real time.

BTW, I'm aware that on some of his recordings for Concord, Tal had time problems. All I can say was that he sure didn't on these nights. One wonders if, like Raney, Tal had significant hearing loss, which of course could really screw you up time-wise, and either managed to make an adjustment or got hearing aids.

Tal rushed when he played for his whole career. It had nothing to do with hearing loss. Being a humble and beautiful cat, he would tell pick-up rhythm sections 'by the way, I rush'. It was much more in control in the '50s, when he was at the top of his game and always playing, but it was always there and you can hear it. After the comeback in '69 it started to really be a problem. It made him hard to listen to after a certain point, a shame because his creativity never receded. Rather, it grew through the years. He was an improvisor who never stopped experimenting and 'playing off the top'. I think you're really noticing his harmonic imagination though, which was always to me his strong suit. The language was so strong it had a fluidity of its own. I think that harmonic insight and language did deepen and permutate throughout his life. It's not like his playing changed, rather it sort of graduated.

The overall fluidity to me in later years went up and down accordingly as his chops did---like anyone else who's either in shape or not. Here's what I believe happened: Tal, like a lot of true artists, loved to play but had a real distaste for the music business. He was also a homebody and didn't enjoy travelling. He would go out for a while (after the comeback), then the pressure and the scene generally would wear on his nerves and he would pull back. This naturally lessons your confidence when you do go back out again. The nerves and loss of confidence would exacerbate the time problems. The funny thing is that when he played 4/4 rhythm----at any point in his career---it was always damn near perfect.

Jimmy Raney's time, OTOH, was always great---even when his hearing loss was so advanced that on a gig he had to watch the other players' feet tap to get an indication of where the beat was. Also his chops would regenerate really quickly after a layoff.

[GA Russell]

Two West Coast players who later abandoned the cool sound were Bud Shank and Art Pepper.

[JSngry]

Two West Coast players who later abandoned the cool sound were Bud Shank and Art Pepper.

Bill Perkins!