mikeweil Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 That Ruggiero is somebody to check out, he made several discs with that trombonist. yup, and this one is readily available as well. Is that a recommendable disc? These brothers never held a special place in my heart .... Quote
couw Posted January 15, 2004 Author Report Posted January 15, 2004 Is that a recommendable disc? These brothers never held a special place in my heart .... I really cannot tell you. I have been roaming google for more of the drummer and came across this disk. Isn't the OJC catalogue available from e-music? ;aybe someone has downloaded this and can share an mp3 or two for others to form an opinion. Quote
king ubu Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 And Eric Alexander IS great! I have fond memories of the one time I saw him life! When was it, and with whom? My opportunity was with a quartet with European (based) musicians, I remember Fritz Pauer from Vienna on piano, Jimmy Woode on bass and Tony Inzalaco on drums. My first conga teacher, Tom Nicholas, sat in, he's from Philadelphia but moved to Germany in the mid 1970's - he had worked with the G. C. Octet among others in the US. I always dug that man live more than on his records, where he didn't move me as much. Only two or three years ago it was. He played with Ahmad Jamal. Started with some trio stuff (half an hour) and then some five or six tunes with him added. The great Idris Muhammad was on drums. (But hell, I will maybe include a track from this in my BFT...) However, it's an evening I have very fond memories of! jazznojazz festival in Zurich, same night Jacky Terrasson played a terrific set with a great Leon Parker (on full drum-set, for a change), and in the breaks there was Larry Goldings with Peter Bernstein and a MIND-BLOWING Billy Stewart on drums. Sort of a "night of great drummers", it was, with some Eric Alexander to top it off... ubu Quote
JSngry Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 Wilmer & the Dukes = Arnie Lawrence Baritone Saxophone Jerry Niewood Baritone Saxophone Ron Alberts Drums, Percussion Vinnie Ruggiero Drums Doug Brown Guitar Wilmer Alexander Jr. Keyboards, Piano, Tenor Saxophone Gap Mangione Keyboards, Piano Larry Covelli Tenor Saxophone Jerome Richardson Tenor Saxophone Sonny Ausman Trombone Dennis Good Trombone Chuck Mangione Trumpet Sam Noto Trumpet Good Gawd. How are they? I just dusted off an old 45 rpm single I bought way back when I was still young and foolish, Give me one more chance c/w Get it, the latter being a real nice funky instrumental. The band doesn't sound as big as the listing, but they hit a groove. Cover depicts only five guys. But that list sure IS impressive. I'll give it a spin ... Click here and find out yourself! Picked the personnel listing off of HERE. You know, it's interesting, becasue the way this guy kicks sometimes, it's like he's superimposing funk accents over a jazz pulse. Which brings to mind an off-topic point. Does anybody else hear, on Jimmy Smith's "Messy Bessie", Donald Bailey slipping in and out of a groove that is VERY similar to what James Brown would be up to a few years later? Bailey stays on the ride cymbal, but the accents he plays in spots, and the feel he plays them with, sure sound like a JB groove to me. Knowing how popular Smith was in that circle, I can't help but wonder if somebody in JB's band, maybe even JB himself, didn't pick up on that and put it to a more overt use. But maybe I'm just imagining that? And, BTW, what other recordings of this trombonist did this drummer appear on? Enquiring minds want to know! Quote
couw Posted January 15, 2004 Author Report Posted January 15, 2004 And, BTW, what other recordings of this trombonist did this drummer appear on? Enquiring minds want to know! that Twist album on Atlantic for one. Quote
mikeweil Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 Jazz with a Twist, Atlantic 1961 Explosion! The sound of ......, Atlantic 1962 Exodus, Philips, 1962 and with Sal Nistico, Riverside, 1962 Quote
mikeweil Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 (edited) Which brings to mind an off-topic point. Does anybody else hear, on Jimmy Smith's "Messy Bessie", Donald Bailey slipping in and out of a groove that is VERY similar to what James Brown would be up to a few years later? Bailey stays on the ride cymbal, but the accents he plays in spots, and the feel he plays them with, sure sound like a JB groove to me. Knowing how popular Smith was in that circle, I can't help but wonder if somebody in JB's band, maybe even JB himself, didn't pick up on that and put it to a more overt use. But maybe I'm just imagining that? Well, I don't know. What I hear is that he places accents on a straight pulsation rather than the ternary pulsation the ride cymbal pattern or "swing" is usually associated with. That makes a nice rhythmic tension - Vernel Fournier did similar things, and he had a lot of experience with blues and r&b bands - don't know if this goes for Bailey as well: hard to say what was there first. It's very subtle; Bailey is a drummer genius, IMO. And JB played a lot of stuff with a ternary pulsation in the beginning, those shuffle beats and some jazzy stuff - I think it's the juxtaposition of binary and ternary pulsation that funks it up, either way. Edited January 15, 2004 by mikeweil Quote
JSngry Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 You hear a "connection", though? It fascinates me how you can hear the same thing in different contexts, and if you don't pay attention you can go on thinking it's two totally different things when really is the same thing! Quote
mikeweil Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 To quote from German's national poet, Goethe: "Die Schönheit liegt im Auge des Betrachters". Literally translated: The beauty is in the spectator's eye. The "connection" is in the listener's ear, if we hear it that way, or that of the musicians, when he/she creates things this way, or both. We should ask Bailey if he had such an idea before it's too late. That's a very very loose and experienced player with some very original concepts. Afraid of absolutely nothing. Quote
mikeweil Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 (edited) When I think a little more about it: You ever heard the MJQ's "Plastic Dreams"? The second track, "Dancing", has John Lewis playing riffs all the time behind Bags' solo and in his own solo that would suit a Kansas City Jump band as nicely as the JB's, Percy Heath plays as funky as can be, and Connie Kay does some amazing things that could be played by some funk drummer with a different sound to great effect. If you change one aspect: the volume, the instrumental color or whatever, it sounds fresh, although the patterns may remain indentical. Entirely different mathod from simply changing the tempo or style in which you play a tune, more subtlety. Jimmy Smith's trio was subtle soul jazz. Edited January 15, 2004 by mikeweil Quote
mikeweil Posted January 15, 2004 Report Posted January 15, 2004 (edited) Forgot to say this is an African musical device, having two or more level of elementary pulsation going on at the same time, and keeping it ambiguous. Ethnomusicologist Gerhard Kubik, who developped this terminology and did some essential research on this - I highly recommend his recent book "Africa and the Blues" - talked about multi-beat structures and the like. I think, the African influence in jazz is generally underestimated - there is much more African musical thinking in jazz than most fans dream of. Edited January 16, 2004 by mikeweil Quote
king ubu Posted January 16, 2004 Report Posted January 16, 2004 When I think a little more about it: You ever heard the MJQ's "Plastic Dreams"? The second track, "Dancing", has John Lewis playing riffs all the time behind Bags' solo and in his own solo that would suit a Kansas City Jump band as nicely as the JB's, Percy Heath plays as funky as can be, and Connie Kay does some amazing things that could be played by some funk drummer with a different sound to great effect. If you change one aspect: the volume, the instrumental color or whatever, it sounds fresh, although the patterns may remain indentical. Entirely different mathod from simply changing the tempo or style in which you play a tune, more subtlety. Jimmy Smith's trio was subtle soul jazz. Mike, while I don't know the MJQ (only their earliest recordings, 51/52) that well, I often marvel at how funky Lewis can play. I cannot come up with a particular example, but there are moments where he really grooves - probably has to do with his rhythmic conception, which seems to be very much his own. ubu Quote
mikeweil Posted January 16, 2004 Report Posted January 16, 2004 Mike, while I don't know the MJQ (only their earliest recordings, 51/52) that well, I often marvel at how funky Lewis can play. I cannot come up with a particular example, but there are moments where he really grooves - probably has to do with his rhythmic conception, which seems to be very much his own. Yes, it has to do with the Kansas City influence he always admitted. Sonny Stitt's "Stitt Plays Bird" is another great example of his comping style. I often find it amazing that academically trained players like John Lewis and Herbie Hancock have these deep rhythmical conceptions going on. Quote
king ubu Posted January 16, 2004 Report Posted January 16, 2004 Mike, while I don't know the MJQ (only their earliest recordings, 51/52) that well, I often marvel at how funky Lewis can play. I cannot come up with a particular example, but there are moments where he really grooves - probably has to do with his rhythmic conception, which seems to be very much his own. Yes, it has to do with the Kansas City influence he always admitted. Sonny Stitt's "Stitt Plays Bird" is another great example of his comping style. I often find it amazing that academically trained players like John Lewis and Herbie Hancock have these deep rhythmical conceptions going on. One recording that always astounds me is that Mike Zwerin date were they play those Kurt Weill arrangements. On the first track, Lewis is quite something! The whole setting is rather stiff (having to do with the arrangements, mostly, I think), but Lewis really cooks, although on cool blue flame, then Dolphy enters and tears it up with a great bass clarinet solo. There's some strong emotional things going on there, I think, just beneath the surface of things. The Stitt plays Bird is a marvellous album. What a great band, there! Lewis' presence seems often to hold things together in a good sense. It's far from being as loose as Stitt dates often were. ubu Quote
king ubu Posted January 16, 2004 Report Posted January 16, 2004 besides, it's funny to talk about piano players in a discussion of a piano-less disc, no? ubu B) Quote
couw Posted January 16, 2004 Author Report Posted January 16, 2004 besides, it's funny to talk about piano players in a discussion of a piano-less disc, no? ubu B) yeah! cut it out willya! Quote
fent99 Posted January 16, 2004 Report Posted January 16, 2004 (edited) Hi All I'm delighted to say that the disc turned up and I've had a blast listening to it. I'll be honest and say that its much more of my thing than the previous test. I've not had time to sit down and pen a response to the music which I'll try to do over the weekend. Inital resonse is great though and though I'd say there is nothing on this disc that I have and precious few I even recognise there is some stuff I'll have to explore. Track 10 in particular jumped out at me and its something that I've had to look for others opinions on. Its a band I've listened to a few things and never liked. Obviously listening to the wrong albums... More later c Edited January 16, 2004 by fent99 Quote
mikeweil Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 besides, it's funny to talk about piano players in a discussion of a piano-less disc, no? ubu B) yeah! cut it out willya! Severe case of deprivation you caused! Quote
king ubu Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Yes indeed! couw, why not start a little discussion on what opportunities the lack of piano opens - because I think very often music without piano is more like, multi-directional, more open etc than with (same goes for guitar, depending on who's playing a little less so). Or do you want to wait on this until you post your replies? ubu Quote
mikeweil Posted January 17, 2004 Report Posted January 17, 2004 Yeah, how about this, I'd have some thoughts to post about this too! Quote
Big Al Posted January 18, 2004 Report Posted January 18, 2004 Sorry to be so late with my guesses. I've read some of this thread, and have had some random thoughts concerning this disc. I like this disc, but I have to admit that a certain amount of sameness started settling in for me right around track 10. Maybe it's just the style, I don't know. But those first nine tracks, MAN!!! Those'll probably break the bank; I can't wait to find out where they came from. Track 3 sounds like an Elvin Jones tune from the late 60s, but then the bari player sounds like Pepper Adams, so I don't know who or when. Someone earlier suggested that track 2 might be from a Max Roach 3/4 album. I thought that meant it would be from Deeds, Not Words. I was wrong. I have no idea what it's from or if it's even Roach. But DNW is a fine pianoless album anyway! And the Monk tune towards the end is from a fantastic album, thankfully reissued last year! Anyway, I can't wait for the answers. This disc will no doubt inspire some more purchases! Nice disc, couw! Quote
Big Al Posted January 18, 2004 Report Posted January 18, 2004 If Sangrey is right about track 3, then I really am jazz ignorant: I used to have that album. No wonder it sounded so familiar. Loved the links. Like I said before, there'll be some purchases made from this! Quote
couw Posted January 19, 2004 Author Report Posted January 19, 2004 couw, why not start a little discussion on what opportunities the lack of piano opens I was indeed going to post some ideas in the answers thread, but as you seem to damn restless to wait, I opened a thread here. Quote
king ubu Posted January 19, 2004 Report Posted January 19, 2004 CATESTA - your turn to tear the sucker up NOW (get it? NOW!!) ubu Quote
JSngry Posted January 19, 2004 Report Posted January 19, 2004 It's tracks 8, 9 & 11 that are intriguing me the most, having identified, I think, all the others (some with the help of other's links, thank you very much!). #8 literally JUST flashed on me. I'm more familiar with this tune (and the melody's opening phrase is what haunted me into recognition) in an uptempo version on another label, but I think that it is track #9 of this CD: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&u...l=Ay9h1z81ajyv5 I have both ot the original LPs of this music, but it has been years since I paid much attention to them, due to this player's continued and ongoing strong output. But I KNEW that melody and its player sounded familiar! (But I could be wrong, as I haven't checked to see if I'm right) #9 I'm liking more with each listen. Due to the bass clarinet, I still have to guess Surman, but that's due to my unfamiliarity with anybody else to guess. Whoever it is, they're a monster, and I like what they're doing, as well as what everybody else is doing as well. Recording seems to be ECM-ish" in quality, which strenghtens the Surman guess, but really, I'm clueless. #11 reminds me of the saxist w/The Ganelin Trio, but I'm not familiar enough with any of those guys work (and no good reason for that, either) to say with any certainty. Again, a STRONG performance, and exceptional playing by all concerned. #1 - follwed a posters link to get the answer, and all I can say is WOW. Who'd have thunk it? Not me, for sure, but "Je T'aime" is how I feel about it. I get the feeling that #5 has been edited, although not in a way to affect the musical performance. Just a hunch. Is this #13? http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&u...l=A1sq3g4fbtvoz I need to get it even if it's not! Strong set, John. STRONG! Quote
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