Mingus on Candid (especially with Ted Curson)

[Rooster_Ties]

Is this: "The Complete 1960 Nat Hentoff Sessions" -- is this a straight-up copy of the Mingus complete Candid set on Mosaic (which I don't have, and am seeing here looks nearly the same)? I'm especially interested in the sessions with Ted Curson (which appears to be all of disc #1 & #2).

So, what's the best way to get the material with Curson on individual CD's? (Since the set I linked to appears to be gray-market, and I'd rather not get it unless I have to.)

I first saw mention of this set on another board. Here's what I have to go on (from the post on the other board)...

Also, NOTE, there are two extra tracks on the gray-market release - is Curson on either/both of them?? What is their origin??

This is fabulous stuff, recorded in NYC in 1960.

Five selections feature the piano-less quartet of Eric Dolphy (on alto, bass clarinet, and flute), trumpeter Ted Curson, Mingus, and drummer Dannie Richmond. Other musicians are added to six other selections (including the 19-minute jam "MDM" and five other numbers feature trumpeter Roy Eldridge who is teamed with altoist Dolphy on three of the songs; those pieces originally appeared on the Newport Rebels' LP.

Players:

Disc 1 (1-5):

Charles Mingus - bass

Ted Curson - trumpet

Eric Dolphy - alto sax, bass clarinet, flute

Dannie Richmond - drums

Disc 1 (6):

Charles Mingus - bass

Dannie Richmond - drums

Disc 2 (1-3):

Charles Mingus - bass

Ted Curson - trumpet

Lonnie Hillyer - trumpet

Eric Dolphy - alto sax, bass clarinet, flute

Charles McPherson - alto sax

Booker Ervin - tenor sax except on 1

Jimmy Knepper - trombone

Britt Woodman - trombone on 3

Nico Bunink - piano

Dannie Richmond - drums

Disc 2 (4-6):

Charles Mingus - bass

Ted Curson - trumpet except on 4

Lonnie Hillyer - trumpet

Eric Dolphy - alto sax, bass clarinet, flute except on 4

Charles McPherson - alto sax

Booker Ervin - tenor sax

Paul Bley - piano

Dannie Richmond - drums

Disc 3:

Charles Mingus - bass

Roy Eldridge - trumpet

Jimmy Knepper - trombone on 1-4

Eric Dolphy - alto sax, bass clarinet, flute on 1-4

Tommy Flanagan - piano

Charles Mingus - bass

Jo Jones - drums

Track List:

Disc 1: The Quartet

1. Folk Forms No. 1 (13:01)

2. Original Faubus Fables (aka Faubus Of Fables) (9:03)

3. What Love? (15:19)

4. All The Things You Could Be By Now If Sigmund Freud's Wife Was Your Mother (8:33)

5. Stormy Weather (13:23) (Arlen)

6. Melody From The Drums (9:21) (Richmond)

Disc 2: The Ensemble

1. Reincarnation Of A Lovebird No. 1 (9:17)

2. Vasserlean (aka Weird Nightmare) (6:36)

3. MDM (19:07)

4. Bugs (8:25)

5. Reincarnation Of A Lovebird (6:55) -- wasn't on the Mosaic (source?)

6. Lock 'Em Up (6:41) -- wasn't on the Mosaic (source?)

Disc 3: The Eldridge Session

1. Mysterious Blues (8:35)

2. Body And Soul (13:45) (Green)

3. Body And Soul (alternate) (10:45)

4. R & R (11:48) (Eldridge/Brown)

5. Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams (3:48) (Moll/Koehler/Barris)

6. Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams (alternate) (3:50)

7. Me And You (9:52) (Eldridge/Mingus/Flanagan/Jones)

Edited May 25, 2011 by Rooster_Ties

[kh1958]

Lock Em Up was on the original Candid album Mingus. It was on the Mosaic release. Its an octet piece and Ted Curson is in the group, but the soloist is Booker Ervin (and a hellacious solo it is).

Reincarnation was an unreleased track, and it is in the Mosaic box as well; also the octet with Curson.

[Rooster_Ties]

So what are all the albums that make up the Mosaic?

[kh1958]

The original albums on Candid were:

Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus--all quartet recordings.

Mingus--the remaining quartet recording (Stormy Weather), plus MDM, Vassarlean and Lock Em Up. (Vassarlean was added to the Barnaby reissue I think and was not on the original).

Plus a couple of anthologies:

Newport Rebels--this had some of the Mingus recordings with Roy Eldridge/Jo Jones, plus a couple of other pieces (including a unique Booker Little recording).

The Jazz Life (as I recall, this also had the sole track originally released from the Calvin Massey session on Candid).

This sorts it all out pretty well (except for not mentioning Newport Rebels). http://www.onttonen.info/mingus/details/candid/md3-111.html

Edited May 25, 2011 by kh1958

[mikeweil]

There was a difference between the LP and CD versions of the Mosaic. The CD version came out a while after the LP version and added those two tracks that had been discovered after the LP version had been issued.

That new box set includes everything from the Mosaic CD version and adds two bonus tracks from the November 1, 1960 Newport Rebels sessions without Mingus among the players - they probably added them to avoid being accused of simply copying the Mosaic CD set. Since there is no other matching session to reissue them - except perhaps the Freedom Now Suite or the Abbey Lincoln disc - and one would have to buy other CDs and duplicate material, why not add them? They are:

Cliff Walk 09: 41

T'ain't Nobody's Bizness If I Do 07: 14

There is another one with Kenny Dorham, Oh Yeah Oh Yeah, and an alternate take of T'ain't Nobody's Bizness If I Do that's still missing from that session. I made my own CDR of the Freedom Now Suite adding them as bonus tracks. Candid would have served the collectors better if they had released CDs with completed sessions analog to the Mosaic discs instead of simply reissuing the original LPs and several other compilations of unreleased or scattered material, like the Reincarnation of a Lovebird, Mysterious Blues, Newport Rebels, The Jazz Life, and Candid Dolphy CDs - that makes eight (!) CDs just to get the Mingus material that easily fits on three. And they duplicated tracks along the way and made discographical errors in the credits ...

Edited May 25, 2011 by mikeweil

[kh1958]

For the pieces with Ted Curson, you can get by with just purchasing the CD issues of Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus and Mingus--that's the best material anyway.

And also, Mingus at Antibes on Atlantic.

[Rooster_Ties]

For the pieces with Ted Curson, you can get by with just purchasing the CD issues of "Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus" and "Mingus" -- that's the best material anyway.

And also, Mingus at Antibes on Atlantic.

Thanks. That's exactly the kinda thing I was looking/hoping for.

[Fer Urbina]

FWIW, Candid sells many of their own CDs at 5 pounds/CD, here.

By the look of it, "Cliff Walk" and "Tain't Nobody's Business If I Do" have been included so the complete Newport Rebels is in this set.

F

Edited May 25, 2011 by Fer Urbina

[mikeweil]

There's this new CD to increase the mess ...

If you buy single CDs you get a lot of duplicates.

By the look of it, "Cliff Walk" and "Tain't Nobody's Business If I Do" have been included so the complete Newport Rebels is in this set.

The complete Newport Rebels ? Not really. Just the tracks issued on the LP with that title, but not the complete session:

Date: November 1, 1960

Location: Nola Penthouse Sound Studios, New York City

Label: Candid

The Jazz Artists Guild (ldr), Eric Dolphy (as), Walter Benton (ts), Cecil Payne (bar), Benny Bailey, Booker Little (t), Kenny Dorham (t, p), Julian Priester (tb), Peck Morrison (b), Jo Jones, Max Roach (d), Abbey Lincoln (v)

a. Oh Yeah, Oh Yeah (Kenny Dorham)

b. Cliff Walk - 9:45 (Booker Little)

c. Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do - 7:18 (Porter Grainger, Everett Robbins)

d. tk 3 alt Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do - 7:47 (Porter Grainger, Everett Robbins)

Eric Dolphy (as) on c-d; Walter Benton (ts) on a-b; Cecil Payne (bar) on a; Benny Bailey (t) on a, c-d; Kenny Dorham (t) on a; (p) on c-d; Booker Little (t) on b; Julian Priester (tb) on a-b; Jo Jones (d) on b-d; Max Roach (d) on a-b; Abbey Lincoln (v) on c-d.

Source: http://jazzdiscograp...oln/al-disc.htm

Edited May 25, 2011 by mikeweil

[Fer Urbina]

By the look of it, "Cliff Walk" and "Tain't Nobody's Business If I Do" have been included so the complete Newport Rebels is in this set.

The complete Newport Rebels ? Not really. Just the tracks issued on the LP with that title, but not the complete session

Sorry, that's exactly what I meant, the idea being (or seeming to be) that you get this 3-CD set and you don't need to buy any Mingus CDs from Candid, nor the Newport Rebels CCD79022 for just two non-Mingus tracks.

And yes, Candid has quite a problem with duplication.

F

[Edited for mistake]

Edited May 25, 2011 by Fer Urbina

[Fer Urbina]

There's this new CD to increase the mess ...

This one has

Lock 'Em Up.....................6:41

Re-Incarnation of a Love Bird...6:55

Bugs............................8:25

Mysterious Blues................8:35

Body and Soul..................10:45

R and R........................11:48

Mingus on Candid was discussed in another thread anyway. Here you have a discography provided by Ubu at the time. The tracks above are 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, and 16.

F

[romualdo]

I have fond memories of the Mingus Candid box - that was my first Mosaic (the start of my addiction)

I think (not at home right now) Michael Cuscuna used the mono tapes for this box, so as far as I am aware it differs from all other CD releases but I could be wrong here

[jazzbo]

If I am remembering correctly, I think it's just the sonics that are different between mono and stereo. But that's an "if."

[romualdo]

That new box set includes everything from the Mosaic CD version and adds two bonus tracks from the November 1, 1960 Newport Rebels sessions without Mingus among the players - they probably added them to avoid being accused of simply copying the Mosaic CD set. Since there is no other matching session to reissue them - except perhaps the Freedom Now Suite or the Abbey Lincoln disc - and one would have to buy other CDs and duplicate material, why not add them? They are:

Cliff Walk 09: 41

T'ain't Nobody's Bizness If I Do 07: 14

There is another one with Kenny Dorham, Oh Yeah Oh Yeah, and an alternate take of T'ain't Nobody's Bizness If I Do that's still missing from that session.

Is that alternate take of T'aint Nobody's.... on the "Candid Dolphy" CD (yet another Candid compilation,this time of Dolphy involvement material)

I remember writing to Michael C in the 90's about the possibility of doing another Candid Mosaic - A "Booker Little/Eric Dolphy/Max Roach/Abbey Lincoln" one (that could possibly be done as a Mosaic Select now. I can't recall his response.

[king ubu]

So between my old post and this thread: do we agree that the four Mingus Candid discs hold the entire output?

Not sure I ever compared the versions on CANDID DOLPHY with the Mingus ones (speaking of "Body and Soul (Take 2)" and "Reincarnation of a Love Bird (Take 1)" on CANDID DOLPHY and "Body And Soul (alt)" on MYSTERIOUS BLUES and "Reincarnation Of A Love Bird (tk 1)" on REINCARNATION OF A LOVE-BIRD, respectively).

Other than the CANDID DOLPHY disc and this recent disc pictured above, I see no overlap between the Candid disc and with regards to your karma recommend you buy the four Candid discs instead of the new copycrap 3CD set!

[Rooster_Ties]

Other than the CANDID DOLPHY disc and this recent disc pictured above, I see no overlap between the Candid disc and with regards to your karma recommend you buy the four Candid discs instead of the new copycrap 3CD set!

Yeah, no plans to buy the copycat here. I avoid that kind of stuff if at all possible (unless it's otherwise never-available live stuff, then all bets are off. ).

[.:.impossible]

I know it is not what this thread is about, but Antibes has long been a favorite. Time to pull it down again. An old friend of mine just loved this disc!

!

[king ubu]

Yes, Antibes is a favourite here, too! Booger adds quite a lot to it, it has a looser, more open feeling than "Mingus Presents Mingus", which makes it rather different... quite clear why the studio album got to be the classic, but I love to have both!

[mikeweil]

Is that alternate take of T'aint Nobody's.... on the "Candid Dolphy" CD (yet another Candid compilation,this time of Dolphy involvement material)

Yes, it's a different take, in mono and sounding audibly worse than the take on the Newport Rebels album.

[Steve Gray]

Has anyone actually bought or heard this set yet?

It still isn't clear to me whether or not this uses the superior mono tapes of the quartet session.

I was just listening to my playlist of the complete quartet session and 'Stormy Weather' is so superior in sound that I feel I need the rest of the session at the same quality, even if it is not in stereo.

(Incidentally, 'Stormy Weather' is in stereo so there must be a story as to why the rest of the session is only available in such wretched stereo quality)

I currently own the standard Candid CDs of these sessions.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Steve Gray

[Rooster_Ties]

Well, I guess I'd be interested in knowing the sound quality of the 3-disc "gray market" version too then.

Not a fan of gray-markets of studio dates, but if the sound is that lousy on the legit versions...

[Steve Gray]

Well, I guess I'd be interested in knowing the sound quality of the 3-disc "gray market" version too then.

Not a fan of gray-markets of studio dates, but if the sound is that lousy on the legit versions...

Just to be clear here, it is only "Mingus Presents Mingus" that has poor quality sound.

[StarThrower]

The original albums on Candid were:

Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus--all quartet recordings.

I dig Mingus, and I love Dolphy, but I could never get into these recordings.

What am I missing? Anybody else feel the same way? I prefer the live stuff.

[king ubu]

What are you missing?

One of the best ever recorded jazz albums! Simple as that!

[kh1958]

I dig Mingus, and I love Dolphy, but I could never get into these recordings.

What am I missing? Anybody else feel the same way? I prefer the live stuff.

I don't know--both recordings are great; I found them enthralling from first listen--in the case of the Candids, I first heard them on a '70s Barnaby reissue--both LPs were stuffed into a single sleeve. Antibes was a pleasant surprise when it was released (in the late 1970s)--I went to a record store to browse and there it was--oh boy!