Classical music bargains

[J.A.W.]

Also, the quality of remastering has improved exponentially in the past few years.

Well, that's very relative. To my ears what I would call "modern" mastering makes recordings painful to listen to, with added digital compression/limiting/reduced dynamics (up to the point that there are no dynamics at all, as happened with many rock remasters; they're just LOUD)/ noise reduction/boosted highs and what have you. On the other hand, carefully remastered recordings can sound great.

Edited October 8, 2012 by J.A.W.

[Chuck Nessa]

Ubu is so smart.

[king ubu]

Ubu is so smart.

Am I? You tell me!

[Bigshot]

To my ears what I would call "modern" mastering makes recordings painful to listen to, with added digital compression/limiting/reduced dynamics (up to the point that there are no dynamics at all

I recently got the Bernstein symphonies box. I had a bunch of these recordings on LP back in the day, but they didn't sound anything like the vibrant, dynamic and present recording quality on the remastered CDs. Likewise with the Rubinstein box. The first couple of dozen CDs in the set covering the 78 era sounds better than it ever has before... much better than the 78s themselves... I have many of them.

In the past ten years, digital technology has gone a long way to correcting the noise in old recordings. It still takes a remastering engineer with a good ear and knowledge about how to properly apply the tools, but it can truly work wonders. In general, even the recent public domain box sets (like Furtwangler and Russian Piano legends on Membran) sound excellent. What used to be true isn't as true any more.

Really good old recordings, like the Mercury Living Presence, Decca Sound and RCA Living Stereo boxes sound phenominal. Better than many recent recordings.

I suspect EMI did a great deal of remastering in the early days of digital restoration and now they're stuck with sub par CD masters. They're the exception, not the rule.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Bigshot

[J.A.W.]

To my ears what I would call "modern" mastering makes recordings painful to listen to, with added digital compression/limiting/reduced dynamics (up to the point that there are no dynamics at all

I recently got the Bernstein symphonies box. I had a bunch of these recordings on LP back in the day, but they didn't sound anything like the vibrant, dynamic and present recording quality on the remastered CDs. Likewise with the Rubinstein box. The first couple of dozen CDs in the set covering the 78 era sounds better than it ever has before... much better than the 78s themselves... I have many of them.

In the past ten years, digital technology has gone a long way to correcting the noise in old recordings. It still takes a remastering engineer with a good ear and knowledge about how to properly apply the tools, but it can truly work wonders. In general, even the recent public domain box sets (like Furtwangler and Russian Piano legends on Membran) sound excellent. What used to be true isn't as true any more.

Really good old recordings, like the Mercury Living Presence, Decca Sound and RCA Living Stereo boxes sound phenominal. Better than many recent recordings.

I suspect EMI did a great deal of remastering in the early days of digital restoration and now they're stuck with sub par CD masters. They're the exception, not the rule.

I had several Membran CDs. As a public-domain label they have no access to original sources like mastertapes and what was used before those and they use whatever they can lay their hands on. To my ears the sound on their CDs was pumped-up, harsh and heavily no-noised, to the detriment of the music. To each their own.

Examples of excellent remasters are the RCA "Living Stereo" hybrid SACDs; they're wonderful. Many EMI remasters from the 1990s onwards are marred by noise reduction.

[A Lark Ascending]

These boxes are certainly winners in price terms, largely for people who are getting to know the music.

I like the occasional composer based box if it's someone I'm unfamiliar with, a box containing a lot of music I don't have elsewhere (the Stravinsky plays Stravinsky box, the Delius EMI box with a lot of vocal music I didn't know) or where I'm wanting to replace crackly vinyl (largely a thing of the past as I've been through all that).

I do think that most of these boxes are part of a clever marketing strategy (similar to the way they keep shuffling Miles or Pink Floyd albums). Easy money for the big companies as they just have to keep recycling the same music (sometimes with some flashy remastering).

By exaggerating the 'unique' gifts of particular performers and encouraging the 'who's best?' tendency amongst connoisseurs and wannabee connoisseurs they get to shift vastly more product. After all, you really do need 20 different Beethoven cycles because they are all so different, each conductor so special!

I can't help that feeling that those who gorge themselves on these banquet boxes are missing out on a wonderful experience - the slow unfolding of a composer's music over many, many years.

I'm frequently guilty of getting a new enthusiasm and simply overdoing it, wanting it all now (bought way too much Brahms last year which I have yet to even begin to absorb. It's there for me to enjoy for the next 40 years but had I been less greedy I could have gradually engaged with it over ten years as I have with most other classical music). It is never as fulfilling as taking the time to explore gradually. Taking a disc and playing it again and again and letting it seep in. Yes, you can do that with individual discs in a megalopobox but the temptation is to move onto disc 345 and then 346 before you've even begun to get the jist of 344.

Edited October 9, 2012 by A Lark Ascending

[Bigshot]

I can't help that feeling that those who gorge themselves on these banquet boxes are missing out on a wonderful experience - the slow unfolding of a composer's music over many, many years.

When you take the amount of truly wonderful music in the world and divide it by the number of years in a lifetime, you'll find that you're WAY behind schedule! Too much is never enough when it comes to music.

Digital audio technology has completely changed my relationship with music in a good way. I have a Mac Mini packed with a year and a half's worth of great music. The server plays on shuffle play 24/7 through airports all over my house. I am always surrounded by music. It even plays quietly in my bedroom at night. I wake up with violin concertos running through my head that I must have listened to when I was asleep. This doesn't mean that I don't take just as much time for focused listening as I used to. The opposite is actually true. I have a list of music that came up on random play that I am interested to go back and carefully listen to.

Having more music than I can ever absorb fully is a liberating and satisfying experience. I'm learning about music faster than I ever did before, and I'm appreciating it more because my horizons are much wider. It's impossible to get too focused on minutia or obsessed with one composer. It's like swimming in the ocean instead of sitting in a bathtub.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Bigshot

[A Lark Ascending]

I can't help that feeling that those who gorge themselves on these banquet boxes are missing out on a wonderful experience - the slow unfolding of a composer's music over many, many years.

When you take the amount of truly wonderful music in the world and divide it by the number of years in a lifetime, you'll find that you're WAY behind schedule! Too much is never enough when it comes to music.

Digital audio technology has completely changed my relationship with music in a good way. I have a Mac Mini packed with a year and a half's worth of great music. The server plays on shuffle play 24/7 through airports all over my house. I am always surrounded by music. It even plays quietly in my bedroom as I sleep. I wake up with violin concertos running through my head that I must have listened to when I was asleep. This doesn't mean that I don't take just as much time for focused listening as I used to. The opposite is actually true. I have a list of music that came up on random play that I was interested to go back and carefully listen to.

Having more music than I can ever absorb fully is a liberating and satisfying experience. I'm learning about music faster than I ever did before, and I'mappreciating it more because my horizons are much wider. It's impossible to get too focused on minutia or obsessed with one composer. It's like swimming in the ocean instead of sitting in a bathtub.

Oh, you can certainly enjoy music that way. And I never make any more demands on music than that it provides me with enjoyment.

But classical music (and jazz) are sold in a way to make you believe that you are buying rather more than enjoyment. When you buy a Schnabel disc you are buying 'sublime artistry'. I'm not sure I'd recognise sublime artistry if it got up and bit me, but I find it hard to imagine you stand a chance tearing through a 587 CD box. But then again, if you've been told enough times that Schnabel discs are suffused with sublime artistry and you want to believe you can appreciate sublime artistry then there's a fair chance you are going to hear sublime artistry. And if you're having trouble, the liner notes will help you along the way.

[Bigshot]

I had several Membran CDs. As a public-domain label they have no access to original sources like mastertapes and what was used before those and they use whatever they can lay their hands on. To my ears the sound on their CDs was pumped-up, harsh and heavily no-noised, to the detriment of the music. To each their own.

Check out the Meister Konzerte box. It's packed with tons of wonderful historical recordings with perfectly judged restoration. I've heard that the Furtwangler box has great sound too. Membran has some excellent titles, particularly the ones from the past year or so.

Master tapes and metal parts aren't always the best source. A transfer off of a good original shellac or vinyl pressing in pristine condition can sound better than one off a deteriorated master tape or worn metal part. It all depends on the condition of the elements and the ear of the transfer engineer. As someone mentioned earlier, the third party releases of some of the EMI catalog sounds better than EMI's own. This isn't uncommon.

Brilliant Classics, major label mega box sets, PD labels out of Germany... They all have great recordings for as low as a dollar an hour. Quality of sound and the quality of performances have gone up tremendously in the past two years. What used to be true about classical box sets isn't necessarily true any more. As a format, the CD may be on its way out, replaced by streaming services and direct downloads. If you prefer physical media and want a wide selection to choose fom, now is the time to act. You may not have much to choose from in five or six years.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Bigshot

[Bigshot]

I find it hard to imagine you stand a chance tearing through a 587 CD box.

That's where the music server comes in! One of the interesting things that digital technology makes simple is accessing music and setting up organized listening. By simply typing "diabelli" into iTunes, I'm presented with a half dozen differentr recordings... Schnabel, Gillels, Brendel... I can easily find out where the spark is and get a clear idea of the difference between styles. In the LP era that was almost impossible, because the routine of cleaning the record and dropping the needle on the right groove was just too laborious. CDs made it a little easier, but neither format compares to digital files in a music server.

A 587 CD box doesn't need to be played straight through from beginning to end. It can become a resource in your library that can get called upon in dozens of different ways over the years.

[A Lark Ascending]

By simply typing "diabelli" into iTunes, I'm presented with a half dozen differentr recordings... Schnabel, Gillels, Brendel... I can easily find out where the spark is and get a clear idea of the difference between styles.

But why do I need to do that?

Because we've been told that's what you do. Find out 'who's best?' Or at least decide 'who's best?' and get into a lather when someone suggests someone else is best.

I can see why it matters to the scholar or a performer wanting to develop their style. But the ordinary listener? There's more than a dash of the Niles Crane in it.

Accept all you say about the versatility of modern music gadgets - I've not got beyond downloading and the iPod. The thing I find exciting is the random functions - though I've yet to try that on the iPod I keep classical music on!

Edited October 9, 2012 by A Lark Ascending

[J.A.W.]

I had several Membran CDs. As a public-domain label they have no access to original sources like mastertapes and what was used before those and they use whatever they can lay their hands on. To my ears the sound on their CDs was pumped-up, harsh and heavily no-noised, to the detriment of the music. To each their own.

Check out the Meister Konzerte box. It's packed with tons of wonderful historical recordings with perfectly judged restoration. I've heard that the Furtwangler box has great sound too. Membran has some excellent titles, particularly the ones from the past year or so.

As I said, to each their own. I'd like to leave it at that.

Master tapes and metal parts aren't always the best source. A transfer off of a good original shellac or vinyl pressing in pristine condition can sound better than one off a deteriorated master tape or worn metal part. It all depends on the condition of the elements and the ear of the transfer engineer. As someone mentioned earlier, the third party releases of some of the EMI catalog sounds better than EMI's own. This isn't uncommon.

Correct and I was the one who said that, mentioning excellent remasterings of EMI recordings by Naxos as an example.

Brilliant Classics, major label mega box sets, PD labels out of Germany... They all have great recordings for as low as a dollar an hour. Quality of sound and the quality of performances have gone up tremendously in the past two years. What used to be true about classical box sets isn't necessarily true any more. As a format, the CD may be on its way out, replaced by streaming services and direct downloads. If you prefer physical media and want a wide selection to choose fom, now is the time to act. You may not have much to choose from in five or six years.

Well, I started record collecting in the late 1950s and CD collecting in 1995 and already have a very wide selection to choose from, so you don't have to advise me. I'll avoid those public-domain labels as much as I can. And as I said earlier I disagree with you about sound quality; it varies from disc to disc, not only the masterings but also the recordings themselves - some are great, some are so-so, some are awful. One of the problems with many "modern" classical recordings is the use of multi-miking, which can introduce all sorts of distortion. We'll probably never agree, so let's leave it at that here too.

Edited October 10, 2012 by J.A.W.

[Bigshot]

But why do I need to do that?

You don't need to do anything.you don't need to analyze or think about what you're hearing. You don't even need to listen to music. But music is my passion. I love to listen to it, learn about it and think about it. When I was a kid, I dreamed of being able to record and play back sound and video without degradation. Technology has gone so far beyond that, it's astounding. I have a collection of all kinds of music that no one, not even a millionaire would have been able to buy a generation earlier than me. I have a high definition projection system, so I have movies in my home. It just keeps getting better.

[Bigshot]

Correct and I was the one who said that, mentioning excellent remasterings of EMI recordings by Naxos as an example.

Were you aware that the Naxos historical line is a public domain label that sources from commercially released shellac and vinyl records? Mark Obert Thorne does the same thing for Naxos that Membran's transfer guys do for them. The secret to great sound is the quality of the engineer doing the work, not the prestige of the label's name. A lot of the same guys who work for the major labels also provide masters to PD ones like Naxos and Membran.

I have a lot of records too... Tens of thousands of 78s and LPs. These CDs that cost a dollar apiece sound MUCH better than the records themselves. I've done some highly regarded digital restorations of historical recordings myself. The technology has grown by leaps and bounds in the past five years. You used to have to buy a CEDAR system that cost tens of thousands of dollars to do a good job of digital restoration. Now there are VST plugins that do the same thing for a tiny fraction of that price. Sound restoration is no longer the domain of big labels. Public domain labels like Membran are just as likely to do good work. It all depends on the engineer and the source records.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Bigshot

[Bigshot]

Here's a mega box mega bargain!

http://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B0091HVMVO/

[ejp626]

Here's a mega box mega bargain!

http://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B0091HVMVO/

Track listing for Philips OJC collection here

I think I am finally done with the big boxes. I still listen to the Living Stereo quite a bit and pull now and then from the Decca Sound Box. I very rarely delve into the Harmonia Mundi box, and when I look over this box, there is precisely one CD I would listen to with any regularity. Definitely diminishing returns for me (though I will see if I can order that one CD as a single...)

[jazzbo]

Conversely I'm really enjoying my Gould, Horowitz, Heifetz, Rubinstein, Toscanini and Bernstein boxes from Sony. I keep dipping into them and enjoying the music and the sound and there are many compositions I've never heard before within. I consider these real treasure chests, and the prices I paid were hard to believe.

[Bigshot]

The Bernstein box is fantastic.

[king ubu]

Conversely I'm really enjoying my Gould, Horowitz, Heifetz, Rubinstein, Toscanini and Bernstein boxes from Sony. I keep dipping into them and enjoying the music and the sound and there are many compositions I've never heard before within. I consider these real treasure chests, and the prices I paid were hard to believe.

Quite wish I had been around to grab the Heifetz!

Must be an amzing one (though I absolutely love his earlier EMI recordings on the ICON - I assume they're not included?).

Don't think I need the Bernstein, and I guess my about two dozen Horowitz disc are just about enough ... but I'm with you on Gould and Rubinstein, and - later on I hope - Toscanini (I just got a corrected disc one today ... guess I'm ready to get started with it now).

[StarThrower]

I ordered this Scriabin set for under 25 dollars. Reviews have been unanimously positive.

http://www.amazon.com/Scriabin-Solo-Klavierwerk-Solo-Piano-Works/dp/B000W4E3OS

[Д.Д.]

I ordered this Scriabin set for under 25 dollars. Reviews have been unanimously positive.

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B000W4E3OS

Mediocre. Really.

[StarThrower]

You're about the only one who thinks so.

[B. Goren.]

I ordered this Scriabin set for under 25 dollars. Reviews have been unanimously positive.

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B000W4E3OS

Mediocre. Really.

Have you listened to it?

[Д.Д.]

I ordered this Scriabin set for under 25 dollars. Reviews have been unanimously positive.

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B000W4E3OS

Mediocre. Really.

Have you listened to it?

I have this set, listened to probably 2/3 of it. The playing is absolutely flat, no dynamic contrast at all. This is tepid, passionless Scriabin. I use Sofronitsky as a reference, and there is just no comparison. There are a lot of clips of both on youtube.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Д.Д.

[B. Goren.]

I ordered this Scriabin set for under 25 dollars. Reviews have been unanimously positive.

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B000W4E3OS

Mediocre. Really.

Have you listened to it?

I have this set, listened to probably 2/3 of it. The playing is absolutely flat, no dynamic contrast at all. This is tepid, passionless Scriabin. I use Sofronotsky as a reference, and there is just no comparison.

Thanks Д.Д.

I'll apprecitae it if can add a link to the recommended Sofronotsky set of disk you have.