Thelonious Monk

[romualdo]

Not sure if this has been discussed before

I have detected an anomaly in the March 6/7, 1965 Paris Olympia concerts, with the help of the HowardM online discography (http://www.howardm.net/tsmonk/tsmonk2.php)

Four titles from the March 7 broadcast (Rhythm-a-ning, Body & Soul solo, I mean You & April In Paris solo) are the same as those from the April 18, 1961 Paris concert (Riverside release - in Riverside box set)

I have listened to these titles from both sources & they appear audibly identical (timings are also close to identical - some applause has been removed from the Riverside releases). I presume these titles were accidentally broadcast

with the later date & have subsequently been left as part of this concert in discographies.

It therefore appears we only have three "genuine" titles from the 7th concert - Well You Needn't, Bright Mississippi & Epistrophy.

Some discographies list these concerts as May 23, 1965. Also, some list the second 6th concert as the 7th. There appears to be general confusion re these releases.

The Thelonious label CD/DVD release (9316) from the early 2000's includes these titles as part of the March 7th concert - seems that the anomaly is being perpetuated.

Any comments?

[brownie]

I don't trust the March 7, 1965 date given for the Olympia concert given on the 'Monk in Paris ' CD from Hyena. The tracks are from the April 18, 1961 Olympia concert that was originally on the Monk Complete Riverside Recordings box. Joel Dorn who released the Hyena CD might have had an explanation for the wrong date...

Of the four Monk concerts in Paris on March 6 and 7, 1965, the only genuine release was the Trema/Europe 1 double CD. This one came out with another erroneous date. It listed the concert as from May 23, 1965!. The exact date was March 6, 1965.

Monk was not in Europe in May 1965.

Hope this helps

Edited May 15, 2011 by brownie

[John L]

Well I'll be...

Brownie - I just listened through the Trema/Europe issue of the March 7th concert. Romualdo is right. Those tracks are exactly the same as the ones on the Riverside Monk in France from 1961. As for the last three tracks, we should probably start comparing with other different Monk concerts.

That March 7th concert was "discovered" in the 90s, and the tapes of the 61 Monk in France concert would appear to have been doctored for somewhat different sound.

[bertrand]

I just ordered the Monk in France for $5. Are there tracks on there that are not part of the Hyena fraudulent release (which I have)?

Sorry to speak ill of the deceased, but this just adds to the evidence that Dorn was not very good at his job.

Bertrand.

P.S.

Actually, I'm a bit confused now. The claim is that some of the tracks on the Hyena are exactly the same as some of the tracks on the Riverside. Brownie says the Trema is the true 1965 concert, but now John L. says the Trema version is also the same as the Riverside?

Edited May 16, 2011 by bertrand

[romualdo]

This is what I have

In 2002 Laserlight issued the "concerts" on 3 CD's -> were these duplicates of the Trema issues?

1. Double "box" containing 2CD's claiming to be the two March 6 concerts (CD 36150 - 17425/17426)

Disc 1 (was this the 1st concert?)

Evidence

Blue Monk

Four In One

Sweet & Lovely

Rhythm-A-Ning

Epistrophy

Disc 2 (was this the 2nd concert or is it actually part of the March 7 concert?)

Well You Need'n't

I'm Getting Sentimental Over You

Teo

Bright Mississippi

Epistrophy

2. Single CD claiming to be the March 7 concert (CD 17250)

Rhythm-A-Ning (Actually April 18, 1961)

Body & Soul (Actually April 18, 1961)

I Mean You (Actually April 18, 1961)

April In Paris (Actually April 18, 1961)

Well You Need'n't

Bright Mississippi

Epistrophy

I've discussed this anomaly with Robin Kelley - he also has the "wrong" titles on his sessionography

Also, the concerts are reviewed in the Jazz Hot Mag (#208 - March 65 - was referenced in Robin's recent Monk tome) -> I would have to pay 15 Euros to download a copy of this mag!! - anyone out there who can get access to this?

[John L]

I just ordered the Monk in France for $5. Are there tracks on there that are not part of the Hyena fraudulent release (which I have)?

Sorry to speak ill of the deceased, but this just adds to the evidence that Dorn was not very good at his job.

Bertrand.

P.S.

Actually, I'm a bit confused now. The claim is that some of the tracks on the Hyena are exactly the same as some of the tracks on the Riverside. Brownie says the Trema is the true 1965 concert, but now John L. says the Trema version is also the same as the Riverside?

Yes, the Trema version came out first in the 90s. The March 6th concert had been available for some time. But suddenly a new March 7th tape was apparently uncovered and released by Trema. Hyena must have also taken the tracks from that source.

Edited May 16, 2011 by John L

[brownie]

Yes, the Trema version came out first in the 90s. The March 6th concert had been available for some time. But suddenly a new March 7th tape was apparently uncovered and released by Trema. Hyena must have also taken the tracks from that source.

Totally missed out on this Trema vol. 3 release

Did not pay enough attention to it when this was released. So many Monk concerts came out around that time and the majority of them were plain reissues.

That vol. 3 looks like the real thing! Trema was a label that was part of the Europe 1 radio station company. The Monk March 1965 concerts were organized by Europe 1!

[romualdo]

Yes, the Trema version came out first in the 90s. The March 6th concert had been available for some time. But suddenly a new March 7th tape was apparently uncovered and released by Trema. Hyena must have also taken the tracks from that source.

Totally missed out on this Trema vol. 3 release

Did not pay enough attention to it when this was released. So many Monk concerts came out around that time and the majority of them were plain reissues.

That vol. 3 looks like the real thing! Trema was a label that was part of the Europe 1 radio station company. The Monk March 1965 concerts were organized by Europe 1!

What are the titles on this disc? - are they the same as the above Laserlight issue?

[bertrand]

I assume the Riverside came out before 1965, so that one is really from 1961, correct?

Bertrand.

[king ubu]

Weird... amazon.de and amazon.fr differ, the German site lists an eighth track ("Satin Doll"):

http://www.amazon.fr/Olympia-mars-1965-Thelonious-Monk/dp/B0000457G9

http://www.amazon.de/Live-Olympia-07-03-1965/dp/B0000457G9/

But these are the same discs (same ASIN No.)

As for the LaserLights, there are three volumes as well, but no tracklistings on Amazon that I can see:

Vols. 1 & 2 (March 6) http://www.amazon.fr/Thelonious-Monk-His-Quartet-Olympia/dp/B00006IJ09/

Vol. 3 (March 7): http://www.amazon.fr/Thelonious-Monk-His-Quartet-Olympia/dp/B000084HE4/

With these LaserLights being identical (from what I've seen/heard so far) with the Trema discs, I guess that Vol. 3 then would be the genuine March 7 set and it should be identical with the 7 or 8 track Vol. 3 from the links on top?

The Hyena you're talking of is this one here, right?

http://www.amazon.fr/Monk-Paris-Live-At-Olympia/dp/B0000CC82Z/

I recently ordered it, but am still waiting - might not come through in the end.

I assume the Riverside came out before 1965, so that one is really from 1961, correct?

Bertrand.

RYM gives 1965 as year of release: http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/thelonious_monk/monk_in_france/

Discogs gives 1961 as year of release: http://www.discogs.com/Thelonious-Monk-Monk-In-France/release/2750426

I guess both aren't to trust...

[John L]

I assume the Riverside came out before 1965, so that one is really from 1961, correct?

Bertrand.

RYM gives 1965 as year of release: http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/thelonious_monk/monk_in_france/

Discogs gives 1961 as year of release: http://www.discogs.com/Thelonious-Monk-Monk-In-France/release/2750426

I guess both aren't to trust...

No, they aren't. Judging from the catalog number of Two Hours With Thelonious (Riverside 460/461), it was released in 1963 or, at the very latest, early 1964. It would not appear that the music is from 1965.

[brownie]

The Hyena you're talking of is this one here, right?

http://www.amazon.fr/Monk-Paris-Live-At-Olympia/dp/B0000CC82Z/

I recently ordered it, but am still waiting - might not come through in the end.

Yes, that's the one. On Hyena/Thelonious Records!

Very good concert (1961 or 1965)!

[l p]

On 5/15/2011 at 7:41 AM, romualdo said:

It therefore appears we only have three "genuine" titles from the 7th concert - Well You Needn't, Bright Mississippi & Epistrophy.

 

Well You Needn't is identical to the 3/6/65 paris version.

sheridan makes the same mistake as the above mentioned discographies by listing the 4 tunes from 1961 in the 3/7/65 session. but he also lists 3/7/65 sweet and lovely (17 minutes) which is to be found on the 3/6/65 trema 710377/8  2cd set.

so, these 3 tunes may actually be from 3/7/65  - sweet and lovely, Bright Mississippi, Epistrophy.

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by l p

[mjzee]

I was following down an Internet rabbit hole, and came to the Wikipedia entry on Lord Buckley.  I found this interesting paragraph:

Memorial

On December 5, 1960, largely on the initiative of WEVD's Mort Fega, a jazz memorial tribute to the late Buckley—as well as a benefit fundraiser for his widow and children—was held at the same venue in which he had last performed, the Jazz Gallery in New York.^[30] Participants included, among others, Ornette Coleman, Dizzy Gillespie, Dizzy Reece, Thelonious Monk, Ed Blackwell, Nick Stabulas, and Babs Gonzales, as well as comedians Orson Bean and Larry Storch.^{[31][32][33][34][35]} For the occasion, at least two original compositions were unveiled, with Gonzales debuting "Old McDonald Did the Twist" and Monk performing "The Lord Buckley Blast."^[32][33]

I wonder what "Monk performing 'The Lord Buckley Blast'" could have been.  Any ideas?