Fragments of my Imagination

[AllenLowe]

allright, I've long had this theory (well, not really a theory, just a sense), based on my wide-based listening, that we never really understand cross influence in all of its complexities - who knows who listens to what and what they hear in it?

so go to this amazon link:

http://www.amazon.co...04692195&sr=8-1

and hear the tiny sample fragment of Lester Young on Lester Leaps In - first of all, of course, hear how amazing Prez's ideas were, even in this minute segment, and how they, subliminally or not, effected the later Free Jazz movement (arguably through his impact on Tristano et al) -

but then - the very last three notes he plays in this sample - ye gods, is he quoting Monk's Evidence? Or is this a tiny fragment of melody that Monk first heard from Prez some time much earlier? I don't know, but I find it fascinating (as I find Prez's physical way holding the horn, in light of Zora Neale Hurston's discussion of angularity in African movements, and of how such angularity transferred over to African American practices in the US of A).

and if you're nice to me about this one, I'll give you the location of a Barney Kessel guitar intro that seems to predict Trane's Giant Steps.

Edited May 6, 2011 by AllenLowe

[cih]

Zora Neale Hurston's discussion of angularity in African movements, and of how such angularity transferred over to African American practices in the US of A).

Where can I find this?... I remember when I saw Honeyboy Edwards play (the only person of that generation I ever did see in person) being struck by the way he made such a physical gesture of holding the guitar, and jutting his elbow sharply backwards... and it reminded me of Monk's way of making such a bodily, deliberate point of jabbing the keys.

[Hardbopjazz]

Monk has done this before. Rhythm-A-Ning was based off a riff Mary Lou Williams would play from time to time. He just built on it. As T.S. Elliot said, "Good poet borrow, great poets steal."

Edited May 7, 2011 by Hardbopjazz

[JSngry]

but then - the very last three notes he plays in this sample - ye gods, is he quoting Monk's Evidence?

Unless you're getting a different sample than I am, no.

[JSngry]

To elaborate, that's a very common rhythmic pattern/overall improvisational device used by Prez, definitely dating back to the JATP days, earlier than that, really, but really brought to the fore later on. In order for me to consider it a "quote" of "Evidence", I'd need to hear the pitches matching, which I don't. Also, "Evidence" plays with the implications of 3/4 phrases over a 4/4 beat, and what Prez is playing in those specific three notes is in 4/4. However, earlier in the excerpt he's toying with the 3-against-4 thing, but hell, Louis did that before either Prez or Monk.

[AllenLowe]

you are missing the point which is that this is a phrase, a fragment, which probably pre-dated Evidence. And as for the melody, it is identical to a phrase ending from Evidence. Your mistake is in thinking that such emulations have to match 1 for 1. They don't; listen to Krazy Kat, for another example, which is clearly Prez's source for Lester Leaps In.

As for the angularity thing, CIH, I will have to look it up - I saw it recently in one of her books,

and because I know that Jim will continue to misunderstand my point (as he regularly stalks my threads here) I will not respond any further.

[JSngry]

You didn't ask if there was a similarity, you asked if there was a quote, which has an exact meaning, and of which there is none in the sample provided. It is not the same meaning as "paraphrase" or "reference".

If you don't want to be misunderstood, say what you mean. And if you don't want to be "stalked", please refrain from asking questions that have straightforward answers in an open forum.

Thank you.

[AllenLowe]

I love the ignore function - this is the first time I have actually used it.

Edited May 11, 2011 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Obviously!

[AllenLowe]

ahhhhh................... .

I am getting sleeeeeeppppppyyyyyyy.............

[AllenLowe]

[JSngry]

Too bad you were so hung up on the meaning of "quote" and the perceived relevance to "Evidence" that you failed to address the bigger point - the use by Pres of the I to #I and back again. That #1 turns up in a lot of later blues/R&B records as a ii(or II)-bII-I progression, quite apart from aqny obvious bebop/tritone-sub theoretical "inspiration". It's what Pres was using even early on, getting to the I from the II, not by going the long way, to the V, but by just kinda dropping down in there, nice and easy, low-profile like.

Anti-angular in motion, actually, like slipping into a pair of shoes rather than using a shoe horn, but "angularly" dissonant/chromatic to "Western"-informed ears who are used to everything being moving diatonically. Don't know that Pres was the first one to do it, but afaik he's the first one to routinely do it, and to what extent it influenced "Intermission Riff"/"Yard Dog Mazurka", I don't know, but I'll give him at least some credit for it's presence in post-war R&B/Blues. Not the first and/or only time he can found there, either.

That, I think, might have been worth an observation. The "quote" thing, not so much.

Oh well!

[AllenLowe]

[7/4]

[AllenLowe]

this is the new me - today the ignore function, tomorrow.........................

Edited May 12, 2011 by AllenLowe