Mosaic Sets for Sale

[papsrus]

Well, regardless of the ethical considerations, this is one of the most successful sales I've ever seen here.

And just to play devil's advocate on the ethical question, I've seen other reviewers here offer sealed promo copies for sale. Not Mosaics, but the principle is the same.

[J.A.W.]

And just to play devil's advocate on the ethical question, I've seen other reviewers here offer sealed promo copies for sale. Not Mosaics, but the principle is the same.

Correct, the principle is the same, but the fact that it has happened before is no reason not to take a look at the ethical question.

[greggery peccary]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you happen to score so many promo sets from Mosaic?

Please answer this seemingly reasonable question, Mr. Peccary. Failure to do so makes one suspicious.

Suspicious? You're killing me.

I spent many years as a journalist and collector. Moving along some sets that I don't/haven't listened to in order to get a Martin guitar. Something that I will enjoy on a much more regular basis.

So you were sent these sets by Mosaic in the expectation/hope that, as a journalist, you would review/write about them? If my figures are correct, thirty-one of the thirty-eight sets you are offering for sale here are SEALED.

You worrying about MY business is really something else. By your calculation, how many of these sets are promos? Are you aware of how many sets I may have acquired multiple copies of? Do you know how many sets I actually covered and reciprocated Mosaic's support with ink? Did you know that early on review copies were SOLD at a discount, not given free? Do you know how many, and which sets I still have (and GASP!!) may wish to sell at a later date because they're mine and it is MY RIGHT and MY BUSINESS to do so?

I'd by happy to send you my credit card bills so that you can get your nose further/fully involved with what I do.

[Larry Kart]

You can do what you please with your Mosaic sets in the world at large, but this is not the world at large. It's the Organissimo Jazz Forum, and not everything that's legal in the world at large is ethical by the standards of this place. Right or wrongly, two of the forum's three moderators, J.A.W. and myself, sensed that there might be something a bit fishy about what what you were up to here. I asked a question about this, echoing what another poster already had asked; you eventually responded -- reluctantly and in a rather hostile manner. You say "MY RIGHT and MY BUSINESS," but you don't automatically have a right to do business here.

BTW, I am quite familiar with the history of Mosaic. I was there from the first, as a customer and sometime recipient (as a journalist) of promo copies. I also wrote the booklet essay for the Mosaic Tristano-Konitz-Marsh set.

[greggery peccary]

You can do what you please with your Mosaic sets in the world at large, but this is not the world at large. It's the Organissimo Jazz Forum, and not everything that's legal in the world at large is ethical by the standards of this place. Right or wrongly, two of the forum's three moderators, J.A.W. and myself, sensed that there might be something a bit fishy about what what you were up to here. I asked a question about this, echoing what another poster already had asked; you eventually responded -- reluctantly and in a rather hostile manner. You say "MY RIGHT and MY BUSINESS," but you don't automatically have a right to do business here.

BTW, I am quite familiar with the history of Mosaic. I was there from the first, as a customer and sometime recipient (as a journalist) of promo copies. I also wrote the booklet essay for the Mosaic Tristano-Konitz-Marsh set.

My answering of the question may have been reluctant, but your predisposition to something "being fishy" would have to be a factor in seeing it as hostile.

You're right, I don't have to do business here and I won't. Your heavy-handed moderation is enough to keep me from offering items of interest at fair prices to fellow jazz aficionados. There are plenty of other places to sell where one won't get hassled.

[papsrus]

Not my business, but I have to side with the seller here. How he came into possession of the Mosaics, as long as it was legal, is irrelevant. In fact, he implies that he paid for some of the promos. And I dare say the enthusiasm with which they were snapped up demonstrates that those who did buy them had no problem with how the OP acquired them.

Someone may disapprove of someone selling something that was given to them, but I'm not sure that alone is unethical at all.

[Larry Kart]

Not my business, but I have to side with the seller here. How he came into possession of the Mosaics, as long as it was legal, is irrelevant. In fact, he implies that he paid for some of the promos. And I dare say the enthusiasm with which they were snapped up demonstrates that those who did buy them had no problem with how the OP acquired them.

Someone may disapprove of someone selling something that was given to them, but I'm not sure that alone is unethical at all.

Hey, what's the point of being a moderator if you don't get to f--- people up from time to time?

Seriously -- I may have overstepped the bounds on this one. If so, I'm sorry; I'm certainly not perfect.

[papsrus]

Not my business, but I have to side with the seller here. How he came into possession of the Mosaics, as long as it was legal, is irrelevant. In fact, he implies that he paid for some of the promos. And I dare say the enthusiasm with which they were snapped up demonstrates that those who did buy them had no problem with how the OP acquired them.

Someone may disapprove of someone selling something that was given to them, but I'm not sure that alone is unethical at all.

Hey, what's the point of being a moderator if you don't get to f--- people up from time to time?

Seriously -- I may have overstepped the bounds on this one. If so, I'm sorry; I'm certainly not perfect.

Well, as a moderator you had every right -- the obligation, even -- to ask questions if you thought something might be fishy. And you should be applauded for dealing with things in a straight forward way.

I hope the seller, too, will cut you and JAW some slack for basically doing what you felt was required.

[JSngry]

Hey, what's the point of being a moderator if you don't get to f--- people up from time to time?

Besides the discount @ Best Western?

[Bright Moments]

dang - sad to see the seller go. i bought one from him before and it was delivered fast and in excellent condition.

greg -pm me if you still want to sell #193

[greggery peccary]

Not my business, but I have to side with the seller here. How he came into possession of the Mosaics, as long as it was legal, is irrelevant. In fact, he implies that he paid for some of the promos. And I dare say the enthusiasm with which they were snapped up demonstrates that those who did buy them had no problem with how the OP acquired them.

Someone may disapprove of someone selling something that was given to them, but I'm not sure that alone is unethical at all.

Hey, what's the point of being a moderator if you don't get to f--- people up from time to time?

Seriously -- I may have overstepped the bounds on this one. If so, I'm sorry; I'm certainly not perfect.

I amassed these sets in numerous ways through the years- more often than not my wallet opened to do so. I'm a collector/bargain hunter like so many others here.

I was very fortunate to have been able to work with Mosaic over the years. It was not without a great deal of consideration that I finally decided to sell some promos.

To the moderators- your question was fair and I felt my response was sufficient. I apologize for not having thicker skin and subsequently lashing out.

[JETman]

Am I the only one that believes that being a jazz journalist (whatever the hell that means) does not entitle one to receive their music for free? As someone who has paid for ALL of my music (and believe me, there's a ton of it), this just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

[Swinging Swede]

Hey, what's the point of being a moderator if you don't get to f--- people up from time to time?

Besides the discount @ Best Western?

I must be tired, because I first thought that looked like "discount @ Ben Webster".

[ejp626]

Am I the only one that believes that being a jazz journalist (whatever the hell that means) does not entitle one to receive their music for free? As someone who has paid for ALL of my music (and believe me, there's a ton of it), this just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

I guess I feel that if one did write a review, then one is entitled to a free copy. I've never reviewed CDs, but have reviewed about a dozen academic books over the years, nearly all of which involved getting a free copy. Now it may be a different story being sent a copy by the company in the hopes one writes a review and then no review materializes. (Not casting aspersions on anyone on this board, just saying it does happen. For that matter, I am super-overdue on one book review, and maybe I should just buckle down and wrap it up. )

[JETman]

Am I the only one that believes that being a jazz journalist (whatever the hell that means) does not entitle one to receive their music for free? As someone who has paid for ALL of my music (and believe me, there's a ton of it), this just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

I guess I feel that if one did write a review, then one is entitled to a free copy. I've never reviewed CDs, but have reviewed about a dozen academic books over the years, nearly all of which involved getting a free copy. Now it may be a different story being sent a copy by the company in the hopes one writes a review and then no review materializes. (Not casting aspersions on anyone on this board, just saying it does happen. For that matter, I am super-overdue on one book review, and maybe I should just buckle down and wrap it up. )

There are reviewers who do so with the sole purpose of getting media for free. That being said, sales of jazz music are not affected (even in the least) by reviews. So why do record companies continue to comp these people?

[jazzbo]

Just as an FYI, Mosaic has in the past (and may still? Dunno) offered sets (that end up looking like "promos" to members of the industry such as djs etc. at half price. Nothing "inappropriate" about those, they're bought and paid for.

[ejp626]

Am I the only one that believes that being a jazz journalist (whatever the hell that means) does not entitle one to receive their music for free? As someone who has paid for ALL of my music (and believe me, there's a ton of it), this just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

I guess I feel that if one did write a review, then one is entitled to a free copy. I've never reviewed CDs, but have reviewed about a dozen academic books over the years, nearly all of which involved getting a free copy. Now it may be a different story being sent a copy by the company in the hopes one writes a review and then no review materializes. (Not casting aspersions on anyone on this board, just saying it does happen. For that matter, I am super-overdue on one book review, and maybe I should just buckle down and wrap it up. )

There are reviewers who do so with the sole purpose of getting media for free. That being said, sales of jazz music are not affected (even in the least) by reviews. So why do record companies continue to comp these people?

Never, ever in a million years has a good (or terrible) review affected sales?

I've know I've made purchasing decisions on the basis of reviews, so it must have been my evil anti-twin buying or not buying the same CD to keep the universe in balance.

[AmirBagachelles]

I think it's fine to ask, especially since its Mosaic (friend of the music, imo) we're talking about. I know a guy who gets everything Rhino issues because of some stale credential or contact. Just sits unopened in most cases. It's for "retirement."

[JETman]

Am I the only one that believes that being a jazz journalist (whatever the hell that means) does not entitle one to receive their music for free? As someone who has paid for ALL of my music (and believe me, there's a ton of it), this just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

I guess I feel that if one did write a review, then one is entitled to a free copy. I've never reviewed CDs, but have reviewed about a dozen academic books over the years, nearly all of which involved getting a free copy. Now it may be a different story being sent a copy by the company in the hopes one writes a review and then no review materializes. (Not casting aspersions on anyone on this board, just saying it does happen. For that matter, I am super-overdue on one book review, and maybe I should just buckle down and wrap it up. )

There are reviewers who do so with the sole purpose of getting media for free. That being said, sales of jazz music are not affected (even in the least) by reviews. So why do record companies continue to comp these people?

Never, ever in a million years has a good (or terrible) review affected sales?

I've know I've made purchasing decisions on the basis of reviews, so it must have been my evil anti-twin buying or not buying the same CD to keep the universe in balance.

In jazz, we're talking about less than 1% of the music industry's profits, ok.

I have NEVER bought a cd based solely on a review. My ears are what I trust most.

Additionally, have you ever read a negative review on a jazz site (AAJ, etc.)? That, in itself, is a form of "pay-off". I've learned to be very wary of situations where "pay-off" (conflict of interest) is a real possibility.

[RDK]

Not my business, but I have to side with the seller here. How he came into possession of the Mosaics, as long as it was legal, is irrelevant. In fact, he implies that he paid for some of the promos. And I dare say the enthusiasm with which they were snapped up demonstrates that those who did buy them had no problem with how the OP acquired them.

Someone may disapprove of someone selling something that was given to them, but I'm not sure that alone is unethical at all.

Coming late to this, but I agree completely.

[RDK]

Am I the only one that believes that being a jazz journalist (whatever the hell that means) does not entitle one to receive their music for free? As someone who has paid for ALL of my music (and believe me, there's a ton of it), this just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

That's a completely irrelevant point. Mosaic (or any other label) can deal with promo/review copies in any way they feel is appropriate. And why should jazz reviewers be treated differently from any other music reviewers? You may disagree with the policy, but promo/review copies have been a way of "doing business" for decades now.

And what's so hard to understand about being a "jazz journalist?" It's someone who makes a living - or just does it for kicks - writing about jazz music and the musicians who perform it.

[Unk]

Just for my edification, can someone help me understand this "sample" promo language in the context of this discussion:

"Licensed for promotional use only. Sale is prohibited." / "Item is to be returned to the distributor upon demand."

I'm not really trying to be disingenuous here. Just trying to understand. I know it's unlikely I would buy a promo secondhand and have Mosaic come knocking on my door, late some night. Perhaps the prohibition on "sale" in unenforceable, so if I buy such an item, I am not aiding and abetting. But what are the legal considerations, from the seller perspective...beyond the "ethical"?

Edited April 25, 2011 by Unk

[JETman]

Am I the only one that believes that being a jazz journalist (whatever the hell that means) does not entitle one to receive their music for free? As someone who has paid for ALL of my music (and believe me, there's a ton of it), this just rubs me the wrong way all the way around.

That's a completely irrelevant point. Mosaic (or any other label) can deal with promo/review copies in any way they feel is appropriate. And why should jazz reviewers be treated differently from any other music reviewers? You may disagree with the policy, but promo/review copies have been a way of "doing business" for decades now.

And what's so hard to understand about being a "jazz journalist?" It's someone who makes a living - or just does it for kicks - writing about jazz music and the musicians who perform it.

My original point was that ALL music lovers should pay their own ticket. Period.

[Matthew]

Just for my edification, can someone help me understand this "sample" promo language in the context of this discussion:

"Licensed for promotional use only. Sale is prohibited." / "Item is to be returned to the distributor upon demand."

I'm not really trying to be disingenuous here. Just trying to understand. I know it's unlikely I would buy a promo secondhand and have Mosaic come knocking on my door, late some night. Perhaps the prohibition on "sale" in unenforceable, so if I buy such an item, I am not aiding and abetting. But what are the legal considerations, from the seller perspective...beyond the "ethical"?

I would say the legal considerations are minimal, if not non-existent. Go to Amoeba Records in Los Angeles, and you will find literally hundreds of promo copies being sold of anything under the sun, and for high prices at that.

[Big Wheel]

Just for my edification, can someone help me understand this "sample" promo language in the context of this discussion:

I would say the legal considerations are minimal, if not non-existent.

That's never stopped our aspiring barristers exalted moderators before...