Yardbirds' Lost Woman Riff

[Jim R]

Well, it's not Snooky playing it, but here you go:

[John L]

Well, it's not Snooky playing it, but here you go:

Quite interesting. I have the original Snooky Pryor Someone to Love Me from 1956 on Vee Jay, and it does not employ this riff. Maybe your man here got it from the Yardbirds?

Edited April 2, 2011 by John L

[Jim R]

Well, it's not Snooky playing it, but here you go:

Quite interesting. I have the original Snooky Pryor Someone to Love Me from 1956 on Vee Jay, and it does not employ this riff. Maybe your man here got it from the Yardbirds?

If he got it from the Yardbirds, why would he be singing "Someone To Love Me"?

The Snooky Pryor sample I heard in iTunes is virtually identical. Maybe you're not listening closely enough?

[John L]

Which version are you listening to? It cannot be the 1956 original.

[Jim R]

It's from a compilation CD titled: "Heritage of the Blues, 1956 - Vol. 4". I believe it's the original recording.

[felser]

I'll take the Searcher's version of "When You Walk in the Room" for my choice of guitar riffs. Originally written and performed by Jackie DeShannon. Quite a pedigree for quite a song:

[John L]

Jim: If it is the 1956 recording, then it uses the same riff as Little Walter's Hate to See You Go. Yes, there is some similarity. The Yardbirds did not come out of a vacuum. But I would say that it is still not at all the same riff (IMO). The Lonely Woman riff is longer, there are additional notes at the end, and it has a completely different feel to it (IMO). On the other hand, that Youtube track that you posted sounds much more like the Lonely Woman riff than does Snooky Pryor's original track. That is what I found interesting.

Edited April 2, 2011 by John L

[Jim R]

Jim: If it is the 1956 recording, then it uses the same riff as Little Walter's Hate to See You Go. Yes, there is some similarity. The Yardbirds did not come out of a vacuum. But I would say that it is still not even close to the same riff (IMO). The Yardbird's riff has a completely different feel to it. On the other hand, that Youtube track that you posted sounds much more like the Lonely Woman riff than does Snooky Pryor's original track. That is what I found interesting.

John, "Hate To See You Go" doesn't share those last four ascending notes that the other riffs share, and in that regard is even less similar. The Yardbirds played Pyror's riff a bit faster, and in a different key (and thus I'll give you "different feeling"), but it's the same riff. If you're not hearing that, I don't know what else to tell you.

[John L]

Jim: I don't hear those last four notes in the Pryor riff either. The Pryor riff (and the Little Walter riff) sounds to me like a faster version of the riff used for Muddy Waters' I love the Life I live (at last in feel, as there are more notes). Yes, there are similarities, and maybe the Yardbirds did get their inspiration from it (most likely from the Little Walter track, as it was more widely heard). But I still do not hear it as the same riff. Of course, there is still the possibility that we are listening to different tracks. I am listening to the original 1956 version recorded by Snooky Pryor for Vee Jay.

To be more precise, all the blues numbers that use the similar riff (Walter, Pryor, Muddy) resolve it at the end down a fourth on the tonic. The Yardbirds don't, and that is one reason why it feels different.

Edited April 2, 2011 by John L

[Jim R]

Jim: I don't hear those last four notes in the Pryor riff either. The Pryor riff (and the Little Walter riff) sounds to me like a faster version of the riff used for Muddy Waters' I love the Life I live (at last in feel, as there are more notes). Yes, there are similarities, and maybe the Yardbirds did get their inspiration from it (most likely from the Little Walter track, as it was more widely heard). But I still do not hear it as the same riff. Of course, there is still the possibility that we are listening to different tracks. I am listening to the original 1956 version recorded by Snooky Pryor for Vee Jay.

To be more precise, all the blues numbers that use the similar riff (Walter, Pryor, Muddy) resolve it at the end down a fourth on the tonic. The Yardbirds don't, and that is one reason why it feels different.

Well, I don't know if your Pryor recording is different from the one in iTunes, but the sample I'm hearing clearly includes those four ascending notes, as the Yardbirds tune does. It's clear and unmistakable. I doubt very highly that the Yardbirds took their idea from the Little Walter riff, and coincidentally added the same ascending four-note sequence that Pryor's riff contains. Until and unless we can sort out whether I'm hearing a different Pryor recording than you're hearing, I'll have to stand on my previous comments. It's basically the same riff. Maybe somebody else can help sort out the Pryor recordings. If I had the whole tune rather than a 30-second sample, I'd point you to the elapsed time of the riff and four note sequence.

[Teasing the Korean]

I should have put two and two together.

A few months prior to recording Over Under Sideways Down, A.K.A. Roger the Engineer - the album with "Lost Woman"- the Yardbirds recorded an earlier version titled "Somebody to Love." It went unreleased at the time, but began to surface on a number of budget label Yardbirds comps in the 70s. So, I guess "Lost Woman" was indeed conceived in a similar fashion to "The Nazz are Blue" and "Rack My Mind."

Christ, I'll have to change the thread title yet again...

[Jim R]

Thanks, TTK (I think you meant to say "Someone To Love", btw). I hate to be stubborn, but I was pretty sure about this one. I don't know why I didn't think to check a Yardbirds' discography. There's a comp called "The Ultimate Collection" which includes "Someone to Love". Heard the sample in iTunes... same riff.

Now I'm curious about the original Snooky Pryor version for Vee Jay. I'm taking John's word for it that it lacked those four ascending notes, but I find it odd (especially since the sample I heard comes from a comp called "Heritage of the Blues, 1956"). I still would like to hear it for myself.

[John L]

I should have put two and two together.

A few months prior to recording Over Under Sideways Down, A.K.A. Roger the Engineer - the album with "Lost Woman"- the Yardbirds recorded an earlier version titled "Somebody to Love." It went unreleased at the time, but began to surface on a number of budget label Yardbirds comps in the 70s. So, I guess "Lost Woman" was indeed conceived in a similar fashion to "The Nazz are Blue" and "Rack My Mind."

Christ, I'll have to change the thread title yet again...

I guess that is pretty convincing evidence that Jim is right, and that the Snooky Pryor song is the source. The blues riff on this and other songs still has a very different feel than the Yardbirds' riff. The blues riff sets up a sort of call and response. The first five notes are the call and the next four are the response. The Yardbirds put it all together into one line. I think that is why it didn't click with me.

On the original Pryor track, the riff is actually only played four times as a sort of introduction. Then it becomes pretty standard Jimmy Reed-type accompaniment.

As far as the ascending note question is concerned, I hear it as three ascending notes followed by a drop of a fourth. No?

Edited April 3, 2011 by John L

[Jim R]

I should have put two and two together.

A few months prior to recording Over Under Sideways Down, A.K.A. Roger the Engineer - the album with "Lost Woman"- the Yardbirds recorded an earlier version titled "Somebody to Love." It went unreleased at the time, but began to surface on a number of budget label Yardbirds comps in the 70s. So, I guess "Lost Woman" was indeed conceived in a similar fashion to "The Nazz are Blue" and "Rack My Mind."

Christ, I'll have to change the thread title yet again...

I guess that is pretty convincing evidence that Jim is right, and that the Snooky Pryor song is the source. The blues riff on this and other songs still has a very different feel than the Yardbirds' riff. The blues riff sets up a sort of call and response. The first five notes are the call and the next four are the response.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

The Yardbirds put it all together into one line.

I don't really hear it that way. I just hear it as a faster tempo on the same riff.

On the original Pryor track, the riff is actually only played four times as a sort of introduction. Then it becomes pretty standard Jimmy Reed-type accompaniment.

Agreed (based on what I heard in the sample).

As far as the ascending note question is concerned, I hear it as three ascending notes followed by a drop of a fourth. No?

The way I look at it, there are four ascending notes in the "response". On the Yardbirds recording in the opening post, the descending line of the "call" is: G - F - D - C - Bb. The four ascending "response" notes are: D - F - F# - G. The "G" that opens the call is one octave above the "G" that ends the response.

[Teasing the Korean]

The Yardbirds play a Bb in the riff; the other uses a B natural.

[Jim R]

The Yardbirds play a Bb in the riff; the other uses a B natural.

The other? Not sure I follow you. Pryor used a Bb.

Hmm... the McPhee clip above uses what would be the equivalent of a B natural (an Ab note, since he's playing it in the key of E, instead of G).

At any rate, when I first learned this riff back in the 70's, I learned it (and I don't remember what key I was using, but let's use G) as a rapid hammer on/off/on/off... for that note, as in: Bb/B/Bb/B...

I think if you choose one note or the other, a Bb sounds better than a B natural, if that makes any sense. In other words, I don't care as much for McPhee's choice.

[danasgoodstuff]

http://www.led-zeppelin.org/joomla/current-news/1419-forthcoming-yardbirds-box-set-combines-unreleased-recordings-photos forthcoming Yardbirds box of odds & sods

[Teasing the Korean]

Hmm... the McPhee clip above uses what would be the equivalent of a B natural (an Ab note, since he's playing it in the key of E, instead of G).

At any rate, when I first learned this riff back in the 70's, I learned it (and I don't remember what key I was using, but let's use G) as a rapid hammer on/off/on/off... for that note, as in: Bb/B/Bb/B...

I think if you choose one note or the other, a Bb sounds better than a B natural, if that makes any sense. In other words, I don't care as much for McPhee's choice.

I've lost track. A version posted earlier had a major third in the riff. The Yardbirds use a minor third. Otherwise, the riff is the same.

[Jim R]

Hmm... the McPhee clip above uses what would be the equivalent of a B natural (an Ab note, since he's playing it in the key of E, instead of G).

At any rate, when I first learned this riff back in the 70's, I learned it (and I don't remember what key I was using, but let's use G) as a rapid hammer on/off/on/off... for that note, as in: Bb/B/Bb/B...

I think if you choose one note or the other, a Bb sounds better than a B natural, if that makes any sense. In other words, I don't care as much for McPhee's choice.

I've lost track. A version posted earlier had a major third in the riff. The Yardbirds use a minor third. Otherwise, the riff is the same.

As I explained, the more recent recording by McPhee used a major third. We're focused here on comparing the Yardbirds riff to (the original) Pryor riff, which used a minor third (same).

[danasgoodstuff]

Hey TTK, you heard the version of "Lost Woman" on the Duane Allman Skydog box?

[Teasing the Korean]

I have not. Is it good?

You know, I don't listen to rock/pop much at all these days, but I swear, those opening bars of the Yardbirds' "Lost Woman" never fail to thrill.

[Jim R]

I had forgotten all about this thread. Now there is the Snooky Pryor recording on Youtube:

[danasgoodstuff]

I have not. Is it good?

You know, I don't listen to rock/pop much at all these days, but I swear, those opening bars of the Yardbirds' "Lost Woman" never fail to thrill.

Not bad, not bad at all, of the three Yardbirds covers on that box it's the only one that goes beyond more or less straight cover to extend the idea for a couple extra minutes worth.