Yardbirds' Lost Woman Riff

[Teasing the Korean]

The Yardbirds' "Lost Woman" has one of my favorite riffs in rock, along with "Day Tripper." British beat groups from that period on occasion took a blues tune/riff/arrangement, put new lyrics over it, and copyrighted it as an "original." I wonder if "Lost Woman" had a similar history?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVi9c4jgc7k

Edited April 1, 2011 by Teasing the Korean

[sonnymax]

I'm confused. From which blues song did the Yardbirds supposedly steal the riff?

[JSngry]

All of them?

[bertrand]

Great song regardless.

Bertrand.

[John L]

I don't know of any blues song that has this exact riff.

[Teasing the Korean]

Thanks. I thought/hoped it was original (to the degree that any riff can be "original").

The reason I asked is that British blues-based pop combos from that period on occasion took a blues tune/riff/arrangement, put new lyrics over it, and copyrighted it as an "original." For example, the Yardbirds did this with Elmore James's "Dust My Broom" (The Nazz Are Blue) and Slim Harpo's "Baby Scratch My Back" (Rack My Mind). Of course, there's no telling where the aforementioned blues artists picked up these riffs/arrangements, as blues is an oral/aural tradition. I just wondered if "Lost Woman" had a similar history, but apparently it does not. That has to be one of my favorite riffs in rock, along with "Day Tripper."

Edited April 1, 2011 by Teasing the Korean

[sonnymax]

It's not a big deal, but I would have preferred you said something like, The Yardbirds' "Lost Woman" has one of my favorite riffs in rock, along with "Day Tripper." British blues-based pop combos from that period on occasion took a blues tune/riff/arrangement, put new lyrics over it, and copyrighted it as an "original." I wonder if "Lost Woman" had a similar history? That phrasing sounds less like an accusation, and it expresses your admiration for the tune (something we have in common).

Btw, as a ong-time Yardbirds fan, I think it might be slightly misleading to lump them together with the many "British blues-based pop combos". After all, they recorded an early album with Sonny Boy Wiliamson and lost their "slow-handed" lead guitar player as they veered into pop territory.

[Teasing the Korean]

Understood. Modified the thread title and original post, at your suggestion.

Also, I used the phrase "beat group," because I love it.

No offense or harm was intended. In my circles, suggesting that a 60s beat group copped a blues riff is about as damning as saying a 1940s folk artist was a card-carrying communist. Although, as I think about it, that would be pretty damning by today's standards.

Anyway, if I were to compile a 12-track "Yardbirds Greatest Hits" LP spanning their entire career, "Lost Woman" would make the cut without hesitation.

[felser]

All of them?

No,Jim, that's the punchline to "How many jazz singers does it take to sing My Funny Valentine".

[Jim R]

I just wondered if "Lost Woman" had a similar history, but apparently it does not.

Well, you only asked the question less than 24 hours ago, and the scope of the history of blues riffs is... sizable, to say the least. I wouldn't be too quick to make any assumptions.

Personally, it always rubs me the wrong way when so many people seem to want to elevate the British (and American) rock artists in stature (relative to the blues artists they were emulating and in some cases stealing from); give them the benefit of the doubt without any desire to look back at the development of music history and check out the original artists; etc. All the "Clapton is (or was) a god"... "Freddie King was good, but Peter Green was the real king", etc. It's understandable in some ways, and it's just rock fans being rock fans, but sometimes it's still bullshit. Not only do I see it as revisionist and ignorant, but to me, a lot of the British bands' attempts at playing blues is downright terrible (and I'd say the more familiar one is with the real thing, the worse it sounds), and hasn't aged very well.

I'm not attacking sonnymax on this specific topic, btw, just talking in general terms.

Btw, I understand the whole debate about what constitutes "stealing", and how unavoidable some of that can be (and how natural and acceptable it can be), but the tendency of people to ignore the history of a musical genre and not make every effort to understand who influenced whom, and who deserves credit for what, seems to be at an all-time high.

[JSngry]

All of them?

No,Jim, that's the punchline to "How many jazz singers does it take to sing My Funny Valentine".

And the difference between a terrorist and a jazz singer is that you can negotiate with a terrorist!

( but they can both destroy a bridge in less than three seconds...)

[medjuck]

I mentioned the Day Tripper riff in another thread (which I can't find right now) and someone sent me to a Youtube performance by and R&B group who had used the exact same riff previously.

[Teasing the Korean]

Are you thinking of "I Feel Fine?" They ripped off that riff.

[medjuck]

Are you thinking of "I Feel Fine?" They ripped off that riff.

Uhh you may be right. I have to go listen to them both.

[Jim R]

I'm confused. From which blues song did the Yardbirds supposedly steal the riff?

Quite possibly, from Snooky Pryor's "Someone To Love Me" (just listened to a sample in iTunes, and it's pretty much identical).

Again, I'm not sure a riff like this can or should be copyrighted, but on the other hand, I think a lot of rock & roll enthusiasts might be better off keeping their mouths shut if they don't care to learn more about whose shoulders their idols are standing on.

Btw, don't mind me, I've probably been reading too many comments by all the kids on YouTube lately.

[Jim R]

I mentioned the Day Tripper riff in another thread (which I can't find right now) and someone sent me to a Youtube performance by and R&B group who had used the exact same riff previously.

When did Junior Wells first record "Watch Me Move"? Some research would be required here, but that may be the one.

[mikeweil]

Bottom line is, there's no copyright on riffs.

But giving credit to the originators would be more than fair.

[A Lark Ascending]

Personally, it always rubs me the wrong way when so many people seem to want to elevate the British (and American) rock artists in stature (relative to the blues artists they were emulating and in some cases stealing from); give them the benefit of the doubt without any desire to look back at the development of music history and check out the original artists; etc.

For your average British rock listener of the time this was just their music of 'now'. For most there would have been no interest in looking up the sources anymore than they'd have studied the stylistic origins of their frilly shirts. But many did get interested in the source material, including many of the players. Most, I suspect, (eventually!) got round to acknowledging the primacy of those sources.

All the "Clapton is (or was) a god"... "Freddie King was good, but Peter Green was the real king", etc.

I'm sure there was more than a little irony at work when that first appeared on walls - and certainly when repeated.

It's understandable in some ways, and it's just rock fans being rock fans, but sometimes it's still bullshit. Not only do I see it as revisionist and ignorant, but to me, a lot of the British bands' attempts at playing blues is downright terrible (and I'd say the more familiar one is with the real thing, the worse it sounds), and hasn't aged very well.

Having got interested in rock music in the dying days of the blues boom I can only agree about how uninspired most of it was. One of the reasons what was subsequently labelled 'prog' was so interesting to me was because it seemed so much more colourful than the standard Brit blues-rock. Having said that, in certain hands, what started as second-hand copying of US blues did mutate into some interesting and attractive variants. Clapton might not be God, Peter Green might not be 'better' than Freddie King, but I'm still listening to and thoroughly enjoying 'Layla &...' and 'Then Play On'.

[sonnymax]

I'm not attacking sonnymax on this specific topic, btw, just talking in general terms.

No offense taken, Jim, not in the least. I share your sentiment about the history of younger, whiter, richer musicians taking credit for the work of older, blacker, and poorer artists. For me, the bottom line is this: give credit where credit is due, and once you've taken something from someone else, show us what you can do with it. That's tradition.

Many years ago, I was asked by a younger musician if it was okay to "steal" riffs from your elders. I told him, "If you're gonna steal, steal from the best."

[sonnymax]

Btw, it's great to hear other people speaking fondly of the Yardbirds. More often than not, I get a "never heard of them" when I bring them up in conversation.

And another thing, are people aware that one of my "guilty pleasure" bands sampled the riff from He's Always There for one of their megahits?

[paul secor]

I mentioned the Day Tripper riff in another thread (which I can't find right now) and someone sent me to a Youtube performance by and R&B group who had used the exact same riff previously.

There's a similarity to the "I Feel Fine" riff and Bobby Parker's "WatchYour Step":

John Lennon supposedly had the Parker 45 in his collection.

[JETman]

Geez, and I thought this was gonna turn into yet another Led Zep ragging thread! Oh wait, that's that other forum

[Jim R]

I'm not attacking sonnymax on this specific topic, btw, just talking in general terms.

No offense taken, Jim, not in the least. I share your sentiment about the history of younger, whiter, richer musicians taking credit for the work of older, blacker, and poorer artists. For me, the bottom line is this: give credit where credit is due, and once you've taken something from someone else, show us what you can do with it. That's tradition.

Many years ago, I was asked by a younger musician if it was okay to "steal" riffs from your elders. I told him, "If you're gonna steal, steal from the best."

Just to be clear, I have FAR less of a problem with bands like the Yardbirds doing what they did as compared with generations (literally) of their FANS acting like these bands created everything on their own.

[JSngry]

...the tendency of people to ignore the history of a musical genre and not make every effort to understand who influenced whom, and who deserves credit for what, seems to be at an all-time high.

It's easy to do that when all the witnesses are dead...

[Jim R]

Btw, it's great to hear other people speaking fondly of the Yardbirds. More often than not, I get a "never heard of them" when I bring them up in conversation.

That's hard to believe (but I guess it depends on who you're conversing with). Now, if you'd said that about Snooky Pryor, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

So... for those of you who were doubtful that this Yardbirds riff was... borrowed, see if you can find a sound sample of "Someone To Love Me" (that can be linked here). I haven't had any luck yet.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Jim R