2011 MLB Season

[Quincy]

Quincy, I thought for sure you were going to talk about the Red Sox / Rays game that is still on...wait, just now over!

I leave the AL East talk to others, esp. w/ correspondents Paps & Dan. Me, I'm all about the Central Divisions. I'm hoping for an Indian/Pirates World Series! (Barring an offensive explosion out of Seattle of course which takes them to the top. )

[BERIGAN]

Quincy, I thought for sure you were going to talk about the Red Sox / Rays game that is still on...wait, just now over!

I leave the AL East talk to others, esp. w/ correspondents Paps & Dan. Me, I'm all about the Central Divisions. I'm hoping for an Indian/Pirates World Series! (Barring an offensive explosion out of Seattle of course which takes them to the top. )

Ahh,a Indians/Pirates world series, Fox execs would jump off rooftops! No one would watch! Which is so weird, football, basketball, it wouldn't matter that much in the playoffs for Cinderella teams to make it to the championship game..but in baseball...

Now, if its Seattle vs the Pirates, then the rating will be huge!

[Dan Gould]

I just can't see how a Delgado or a McGriff should make it through to the Hall. Its not just a numbers game, and they both played in a a high-offense era with a lot of other slugging first basemen.

As for last night's slugfest, suffice to say that I went to bed at the end of the ninth inning, certain the Sox would lose in the end. Its just easier that way, plus its tough to win in extras on the road. So it was certainly a nice wake-up surprise to see that they went another seven innings but finally won it. Now if they just don't sleepwalk through the game against Baltimore tonight, and hopefully the Rays will play the Yanks just as tough.

[papsrus]

Couldn't stay up for the end, although the way that game was going I pretty much figured the outcome.

[BERIGAN]

I just can't see how a Delgado or a McGriff should make it through to the Hall. Its not just a numbers game, and they both played in a a high-offense era with a lot of other slugging first basemen.

As for last night's slugfest, suffice to say that I went to bed at the end of the ninth inning, certain the Sox would lose in the end. Its just easier that way, plus its tough to win in extras on the road. So it was certainly a nice wake-up surprise to see that they went another seven innings but finally won it. Now if they just don't sleepwalk through the game against Baltimore tonight, and hopefully the Rays will play the Yanks just as tough.

Well, don't forget, several of their contemporaries that have put up stout numbers at 1st have been shown to use steroids. Rafael Palmeiro, Ortiz, Giambi, off the top of my head. Albert Bell, well, I guess he was an outfielder, but you know with his anger issues, he had to been on roids...I don't know...have the rules changed??? Do guys only get judged by their peers?? (and since many of their peers were cheating...)or by others that have played the position, that are in the hall???

[Dan Gould]

I think in a grossly inflated offensive era that the old "milestone accomplishments" don't mean nearly as much. And in an era of PED use, who is to really say who used and who didn't? Not being named in some report or not being stupid enough to get caught in the 'survey testing' in 2003 doesn't mean you were clean for a decade before.

[ghost of miles]

Curtis Granderson on diversity in baseball: Where are black fans?

[JSngry]

At Smooth Jazz concerts?

Seriously, I've noticed the same thing, but in all honesty, the notion that baseball is mostly for middle-aged upper-middle class white folk has been lingering in the air for the last 10-15 years or so. It's not unlike jazz in that regard.

But to ask the question a little more - where are the African-American players? Seems to me that most of the "players of color" (a terrible, yet generally understood, phrase) these days are Latino. MLB has that RBI program, but how long will it be before that really takes root, if it ever does? There may or may not be a connection, but I think that for some people (especially around here, where football & basketball are favored by all demographics) , the language/cultural difference is a big factor as far as feeling "connected" to the players.

I even heard one sports talk-show host a few years back bemoaning how hardly any local African-American youth were playing baseball these days, making the point that if you want a career in sports, your career as a non-superstar is more likely to be longer and more profitable in baseball than in any other sport, b/c the player's union has ensured that the players get a better taste than in any other sport. The caller feedback was almost unanimous - Little League costs too much money for equipment, it's too hot in the summer, the city doesn't keep up the ball fields, and the schools spend all their athletic budgets on football and basketball, because they're easier to do at that level. A few souls even charged that white folk own baseball, so it's only natural that they're keeping the young black folk out now that the big money's rolling in.

To look at the issue of diversity from another angle, though, I'm hearing significantly more Spanish - and other languages - being spoken in the stands at The Ballpark than there was 10 years ago. So if we define "diversity" in strictly "white/black" terms, that's kinda..."last century". It's still a valid point to examine, I think, the overall diversity of the contemporary MLB fanbase, but there's more than one way to answer it. America is no longer just a "white/black" society. Anything but. That train's done left the station and ain't comin' back.

Bottom line for me - the more people you get playing baseball as youth, the more people will get attached to it. Just look at soccer. Hell, my son - and most of his friends - watches more soccer than he does baseball, and he loves baseball.

[Aggie87]

You know, one thing that baseball has that football & basketball don't (for the most part) is minor leagues, developmental leagues, and independent leagues.

The players in A/AA/AAA and indy leagues are all competing day in and day out for that one shot at getting to the bigs.

I don't think that explains why there aren't so many black MLB players, but it may be one factor.

The NBA gets high school kids (or kids with one year of college under their belt) and is willing to sign them to a roster and make them an instant star (with the instant multi-million dollar contract), or spend a year or two developing them to where they can be solid contributors, while still on that roster (see DeAndre Jordan, LA Clippers). MLB doesn't really do that. Even the first round draft picks in the MLB seem to spend time in the minors before ever showing up at the show. And there were 50 rounds in this past draft. 50! There aren't "instant" stars.

The allure for some urban kids from poor backgrounds may be more for the instant money (NBA) than the developmental job (MLB), that may or may not ever result in a big paycheck. Might even venture a guess that more MLB players (black, white, whatever) come from middle class backgrounds comparatively, where they were allowed to develop over time as they grew up, in Little League/Pony League, traveling teams, etc. Which all cost money.

There is ALOT more competition to get onto a professional MLB baseball team, compared to an NFL or NBA team.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Aggie87

[JSngry]

Just to add - my son played baseball as a kid, and I helped coach. I don't think it's a coincidence that he carries forward a love of the game and an active interest in it.

Edited July 20, 2011 by JSngry

[JSngry]

There is ALOT more competition to get onto a professional MLB baseball team, compared to an NFL or NBA team.

There's also an increasingly international pool of young talent in baseball, more so than the NBA, where players are almost always pro "at home" before coming here, definitely much more so than the NFL, which these days is about as "native" a sport to "American soil" as there is. And also the most stuck in a rut (just my opinion).

[Dan Gould]

Man was I glad when the silly dome helped the Rays steal one from the Yankees. Made the pain and embarrassment of pissing away a game to the Orioles much easier to take.

[LWayne]

Quincy, I thought for sure you were going to talk about the Red Sox / Rays game that is still on...wait, just now over!

I leave the AL East talk to others, esp. w/ correspondents Paps & Dan. Me, I'm all about the Central Divisions. I'm hoping for an Indian/Pirates World Series! (Barring an offensive explosion out of Seattle of course which takes them to the top. )

Ahh,a Indians/Pirates world series, Fox execs would jump off rooftops! No one would watch! Which is so weird, football, basketball, it wouldn't matter that much in the playoffs for Cinderella teams to make it to the championship game..but in baseball...

Now, if its Seattle vs the Pirates, then the rating will be huge!

As of today, my once lowly Pirates are in first place in the NL Central. Who would have believed it? Wish I could have laid down some money in Las Vegas back in April.

It won't last, but it is fun while it does.

LWayne

[ghost of miles]

Jim--I actually think the increasing influence/impact of Latino players and fans has been so significant over the past 15-20 years that I (rather foolishly) thought it went without saying... but of course that's kinda harebrained on my part when it comes to matters of race and diversity. But yes, I think it's one of the things--really one of the most important things--that's kept the game from sliding into a big decline in popularity in recent times.

[MartyJazz]

Man was I glad when the silly dome helped the Rays steal one from the Yankees. Made the pain and embarrassment of pissing away a game to the Orioles much easier to take.

The Yanks still could have gotten out of that inning with no runs scored if Logan snares the comebacker to the mound, instead of muffing it, and starts a 1-4-3 DP. But that dome makes a travesty out of the game.

[Tim McG]

Giants beat the hated Dodgers again!

And where I guess I should feel bad for the team's demise [yeah, that'll happen] Mark Purdy wrote a good column in the San Jose Mercury News: Giants fans need to root for the Dodgers

To which I replied:

Mark,

Where I fully appreciate the concern for baseball, I am at a loss as to why we Giants fans should give two hoots and a holler about the hated Dodgers. Has the 2010 WS win caused you to already forget the heated history of this rivalry?

We have suffered long and mightily under the weight of Dodger arrogance in the form of constant verbal derision such as over 50 years of, "The Giants have never won a World Series in California". How about the Eric Gag-me flip the finger at the crowd years when the Dodgers just owned us? Try listening to overly tattooed and drunken Dodger fans gloat over yet another win and in San Francisco or the heartache of being prevented entry into the post season even after winning over 100 games by the stinking Dodgers. Have you already forgotten the 1960s, 70s and 80s wherein the Dodgers won NL pennants while we Giants fans just watched? And don't even get me started on old pasta belly; Tommy Lasorda. Yet you expect us to root for the Dodgers...? Have you lost your mind?

It is simply not in me to root for anything other than a total destruction of a team and its fan base which has been the proverbial thorn in the Giants' side for decades. It is my fervent hope that they are the doormat to the league for at least as long as the Giants were and more. Pssh. Root for a team and fan base which would stop at nothing to laugh in our collective faces? No sir! Not this Giants fan or legions more just like me. Not now, not ever. I'll say it loud and I'll say it proud: Death to Dodger Blue and all those who sail in her....or words to that effect.

Signed: Dodger hater since birth.

Edited July 20, 2011 by GoodSpeak

[papsrus]

Man was I glad when the silly dome helped the Rays steal one from the Yankees. Made the pain and embarrassment of pissing away a game to the Orioles much easier to take.

The Yanks still could have gotten out of that inning with no runs scored if Logan snares the comebacker to the mound, instead of muffing it, and starts a 1-4-3 DP. But that dome makes a travesty out of the game.

The Trop is a joke, no doubt. For a lot of reasons. But Granderson isn't the first person to lose a fly ball to the background of a dome. Or the sunlight, for that matter. The catwalks are the bigger joke. That and falling glass. And power outages. (noticed that when some lights went out after a lightning strike Monday night, the box scores listed it as an 18-minute rain delay ... at the Trop )

Logan actually was pitching well, I thought, but Granderson (again) should have made a better throw to home on the go-ahead run on that shallow fly ball. I was a little surprised Rodriguez tagged up on that one. An accurate throw almost surely nails him.

[Quincy]

I'll say it loud and I'll say it proud: Death to Dodger Blue and all those who sail in her....or words to that effect.

Signed: Dodger hater since birth.

Don't discount the value of a healthy & especially historic enemy in sports. For now you might relish the thought of the Dodgers in the cellar for years to come, but will will Western titles really be as satisfying if LA stinks? Oh I'm sure they will at first, but unless you're a sadist eventually you might strangely find yourself missing the old hated competitor. Plus it will make failure to win the division all the more painful, losing out the new teams of AZ, CO & SD. Yeah, I still consider the Padres to be a newcomer.

[JSngry]

Jim--I actually think the increasing influence/impact of Latino players and fans has been so significant over the past 15-20 years that I (rather foolishly) thought it went without saying... but of course that's kinda harebrained on my part when it comes to matters of race and diversity. But yes, I think it's one of the things--really one of the most important things--that's kept the game from sliding into a big decline in popularity in recent times.

Well, it's one of those things that has been going on without a lot of "fanfare" for quite a while, if only because the dynamic is not as "front and center" in the American "political consciousness", which is in terms of "racial" alignment is still pretty much locked in to the White/Black/Border Issues-ImmigrationReform, which is...limited, to put it mildly...the influx of Asian & African immigration and the cultures coming along with it are making a lasting impact which the politics of the time, as usual, are sleeping on. But also as usual, by the time the "mainstream" gets to it, the momentum's already established and the deal done, if you know what I mean. Whatever "dialogue" ensues is then behind the reality, and...same as it ever was, ya' know?

In baseball, hell, so many Americans in general have gotten too fat, too lazy, too into instant gratification...just plain "unmotivated" to play baseball on a scale like they used to. The domestic talent pool alone could never have supplied a quality product to the number of teams that now exist. Just as adding African-American talent was essential to the game's survival in the latter 20th Century, so has the influx of "Latin" talent been to the 21st, and probably will be going forth. Organizations are recognizing this too. I know the Rangers are proactive with offering English lessons & media-relations advice to their players, and I'd be shocked if most other teams weren't doing so as well. It's kinda like the Berry Gordy "finishing school" at Motown, and it's paying off. Elvis Andrus is regularly interviewed post-game, and his natural charisma exudes itself all over the TV when he is. This guy has the skills to engage, and he's more than willing to do so, as is the media with him. This is a huge paradaigm shift from the MLB of my youth, and also from my not-too distant adult past.

My observation about all of this as it pertains to "baseball diversity" in my geographical area is this - color of skin is nowhere near as big a "unifier" as is language/regional culture. If it was, Elvis Andrus would be a hero in the hood around here, and believe me, he's not. But among the Spanish-speaking community (which includes people of all skin colors), people are noticing him, as well as the other Spanish-speaking players. Game before last I was at, there was a family sitting a few rows in front of me with all the kids holding up homemade Nelson Cruz signs, all in Spanish. The cheering was all in Spanish as well, although the parents' communication with the vendors (and the portion of the staff who were curious what the signs said) was all in quite fluent English. Not too terribly long ago, those kids would have either made the signs in English, not carried them at all, or, quite possibly, not even have gone to the ballgame to begin with.

Perhaps Mr. Granderson could ask Mr. Cano how many fans he hears speaking Spanish!

[Dan Gould]

Sox go 4 of 6 in Tampa and Baltimore and perhaps with some luck David Price will help them go 2.5 games on the Yankees tonight. That would be nice since they face King Felix on Friday at Fenway. If there's anyone who could make a run or two stand up its him.

[Quincy]

If there's anyone who could make a run or two stand up its him.

Unfortunately for Felix it takes 3-4 games combined for the offense to score "a run or two."

[Dan Gould]

That may be but you lose ten in a row I am just waiting for them to bounce back and take two of three at Fenway. I know you don't see it happening but I figure any team playing that bad has to turn it around and the longer it goes, the more likely it will happen.

(and you have my sympathies for having this streak of futility coincide with the longest winning streak of the year by the division leader. How many times does it happen in a decade that a team goes from 2.5 out to 12.5 in the space of ten games?)

[Tim McG]

I'll say it loud and I'll say it proud: Death to Dodger Blue and all those who sail in her....or words to that effect.

Signed: Dodger hater since birth.

Don't discount the value of a healthy & especially historic enemy in sports. For now you might relish the thought of the Dodgers in the cellar for years to come, but will will Western titles really be as satisfying if LA stinks? Oh I'm sure they will at first, but unless you're a sadist eventually you might strangely find yourself missing the old hated competitor. Plus it will make failure to win the division all the more painful, losing out the new teams of AZ, CO & SD. Yeah, I still consider the Padres to be a newcomer.

Good point.

However, the team's W-L records have never mattered. The Giants vs. Dodgers rivalry is as heated now as it has ever been regardless of who's in first; always a battle to beat the Dodgers and for them the Giants. Ask a Red Sox fan if they would care about the Yankees if they were in the same position as the Dodgers. Or a Cubbies fan about the Cards. I'm willing to bet the ranch they would feel the same as I do. Personally, I would like nothing more than to see the Dodgers suck wind from now until eternity.

Winning the NL West will be a prize worth having in spite of the teams involved. Trust me on this one. And don't count out the Padres, D'backs or Rockies just yet. All three have the potential to make a strong comeback.

BTW, I have a conference to attend in San Diego in a couple weeks so, my son and I are going to a Padres vs. Dodgers game....just to boo the Dodgers

[Noj]

If I were a praying man, I'd pray the Giants never win another game.

[papsrus]

From wiki:

July 21, 1945: Les Mueller put on one of the greatest pitching performances in major league history. Mueller pitched the first 19-2/3 innings for the Tigers and left having given up only 1 run. No pitcher has thrown as many innings in a major league game since Mueller's feat. The game lasted 4 hours and 48 minutes before umpire Bill Summers called the game a 1-1 tie due to darkness at 7:48 p.m. (Shibe Park had lights, but the American League had a rule against using the lights during a scheduled day game.)