2011 MLB Season

[Tim McG]

You? You only have some childish Dan Gould insult, "claim" you've seen him pitch and a lot of nothing else.

Yeah, I'm sure that in all those years of being a fan Paul never saw Ryan pitch. (The name of that emoticon is "rolls eyes" btw, it's not just a smile.)

So anyway, Ryan easily could have won 2 Cy Youngs. In the '81 strike year he led the league with a sub-2 ERA and as usual strikeouts. He also went 11-5 (just 110 games that year.) But that was the year of Fernandomania.

1987 is the poster year for showing how wins for pitchers can be a dubious stat. At the age of 40 he again led the league in Ks & ERA but went 8-16. The Astros just didn't score for him at all. He had one game where he allowed no earned runs thru 8 and lost. Many games where he gave up 1 run and lost. His '87 game log. It's not for the squeamish.

(As an aside how on earth did Bob Gibson lose 9 games in 1968 when he had an ERA of 1.12? See for yourself. Some are deserved, but one includes giving up 1 run in the 10th for a 1-0 loss!)

That said I do think that Nolan is overrated, or at least if I was going to pick a staff just in my lifetime (beginning in the early '60s) I doubt he'd be on it even if I chopped it into leagues. And I like him, the folklore about him and loved watching him pitch. He was too wild in his Angel years walking 5 to 6 per game. Sure, he also only gave up 6 hits per game, but imagine having to field behind that as he's also striking out 10-11. That's a lot of time staring into your glove and making sure your shoes are tied. He did become a pitcher rather than a thrower once he reached his 30s and that's admirable. But the high leg kick made him easy to run on, he didn't field the position well and he was a terrible hitter. (Somehow I managed to see him hit one of his home runs.) Those later complaints might be like complaining about a weird mole on a goddess but the holding runners & fielding problems may help explain a wee bit of the difference between Carlton & Ryan's careers, as Cartlon was good at all 3 of the little things mentioned.

I don't know. When I was a young child watching Ryan "pitch" for the Mets, his typical line read: 7 IHP, 9 K, 10 BB. Very frustrating that he could never harness his power while in NY. Wasn't unhappy to see him go. Getting that wonderful player Jim Fregosi for him caused an entirely 'nother level of frustration in my Mets fandom, though.

I was sorry to see Fregosi go to the Mets as well as Mays. Broke my heart on both occasions.

You? You only have some childish Dan Gould insult, "claim" you've seen him pitch and a lot of nothing else.

Yeah, I'm sure that in all those years of being a fan Paul never saw Ryan pitch. (The name of that emoticon is "rolls eyes" btw, it's not just a smile.)

So anyway, Ryan easily could have won 2 Cy Youngs. In the '81 strike year he led the league with a sub-2 ERA and as usual strikeouts. He also went 11-5 (just 110 games that year.) But that was the year of Fernandomania.

1987 is the poster year for showing how wins for pitchers can be a dubious stat. At the age of 40 he again led the league in Ks & ERA but went 8-16. The Astros just didn't score for him at all. He had one game where he allowed no earned runs thru 8 and lost. Many games where he gave up 1 run and lost. His '87 game log. It's not for the squeamish.

(As an aside how on earth did Bob Gibson lose 9 games in 1968 when he had an ERA of 1.12? See for yourself. Some are deserved, but one includes giving up 1 run in the 10th for a 1-0 loss!)

That said I do think that Nolan is overrated, or at least if I was going to pick a staff just in my lifetime (beginning in the early '60s) I doubt he'd be on it even if I chopped it into leagues. And I like him, the folklore about him and loved watching him pitch. He was too wild in his Angel years walking 5 to 6 per game. Sure, he also only gave up 6 hits per game, but imagine having to field behind that as he's also striking out 10-11. That's a lot of time staring into your glove and making sure your shoes are tied. He did become a pitcher rather than a thrower once he reached his 30s and that's admirable. But the high leg kick made him easy to run on, he didn't field the position well and he was a terrible hitter. (Somehow I managed to see him hit one of his home runs.) Those later complaints might be like complaining about a weird mole on a goddess but the holding runners & fielding problems may help explain a wee bit of the difference between Carlton & Ryan's careers, as Cartlon was good at all 3 of the little things mentioned.

The stats which say he was wild/walked people only reflect an average. When he was young he did that a lot. But as he matured into the position the wildness gave way to sterling pitching prowes and sheer domination on the mound. So the stats tell you nothing more than what happened, on average, over his entire career, not how he actually played it.

You simply do not get that many SOs by being wild.

Smirk all you want, Quincy. It as true as my saying there is no proof Paul ever saw Ryan pitch on the baseball diamond.

Edited November 3, 2011 by GoodSpeak

[JETman]

You CAN get that many SO's by being wild. Didn't you see the All-Star game where Randy Johnson made John Kruk look rather foolish? Johnson was SO powerful AND wild at that point in his career that he scared batters into swinging at bad pitches because they were afraid of being plunked.

Nolan Ryan turned into a dominant pitcher, obviously. He did so after learning how to "pitch" and not merely throw. He was on some pretty lousy teams, so his record probably does not reflect how dominant he was. Still not my idea of a "perfect" pitcher, or a real student of the art, however. Love him or hate him, that slot for me still belongs to Tom Seaver, hands down.

And, btw, Mays BELONGED in NY. Always did, always will.

Edited November 3, 2011 by JETman

[JSngry]

The first "perfect pitchers" in my lifetime that pop to mind are Bob Gibson, the mature Sandy Koufax, Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver. Put Juan Marichal in there too. From a little later, maybe Randy Johnson. I'm sure there's many I'm forgetting.

As for the mature Nolan, not a perfect pitcher, for the reasons already delineated, but I'll put it this way - if I had to choose between facing him as a hitter or having him on my rotation, I'd take him on my rotation, and have him pretty high in the order.

[Tim McG]

You CAN get that many SO's by being wild. Didn't you see the All-Star game where Randy Johnson made John Kruk look rather foolish? Johnson was SO powerful AND wild at that point in his career that he scared batters into swinging at bad pitches because they were afraid of being plunked.

Nolan Ryan turned into a dominant pitcher, obviously. He did so after learning how to "pitch" and not merely throw. He was on some pretty lousy teams, so his record probably does not reflect how dominant he was. Still not my idea of a "perfect" pitcher, or a real student of the art, however. Love him or hate him, that slot for me still belongs to Tom Seaver, hands down.

And, btw, Mays BELONGED in NY. Always did, always will.

I think Tom Seaver was an awesome pitcher, too. I got to see him pitch as well. A shoo-in for the HOF.

My point went to statistics as mere averages, not to being wild and still geting guys out.

The first "perfect pitchers" in my lifetime that pop to mind are Bob Gibson, the mature Sandy Koufax, Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver. Put Juan Marichal in there too. From a little later, maybe Randy Johnson. I'm sure there's many I'm forgetting.

As for the mature Nolan, not a perfect pitcher, for the reasons already delineated, but I'll put it this way - if I had to choose between facing him as a hitter or having him on my rotation, I'd take him on my rotation, and have him pretty high in the order.

I like your list, and as a Giants fan it hurts me to say this, but Marichal lost all my respect after he batted around on Johnny Roseboro's forehead. To this day, I cannot get past the fact he used a bat on a fellow human being. And in a game, fer crissakes.

Willie Mays, however, earned my heart when he stepped into the frey to pull the Dodger catcher out and back to the dugout. That was 100% class.

Edited November 4, 2011 by GoodSpeak

[JSngry]

The Marichal/Roseboro thing was indeed ugly, but time has passed and they themselves have made their peace with it (Roseboro was not entirely without blame, btw, he was doing what Koufax refused to do), so I figure I can too.

Which is not to say that it's to be regarded casually now, anything but. But good people can do some pretty bad things, and I believe that if redemption is sincerely sought that it can usually be found.

[Tim McG]

The Marichal/Roseboro thing was indeed ugly, but time has passed and they themselves have made their peace with it (Roseboro was not entirely without blame, btw, he was doing what Koufax refused to do), so I figure I can too.

Which is not to say that it's to be regarded casually now, anything but. But good people can do some pretty bad things, and I believe that if redemption is sincerely sought that it can usually be found.

True dat.

And don't get me wrong, Marichal was one great pitcher. But when I go to the ballpark and walk by his statue, all those negative feelings come streaming back. I wish it wasn't so.

Edited November 3, 2011 by GoodSpeak

[GA Russell]

Matty Alou has died.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/ex-giant-matty-alou-72-dies/article2224588/

[JSngry]

The Marichal/Roseboro thing was indeed ugly, but time has passed and they themselves have made their peace with it (Roseboro was not entirely without blame, btw, he was doing what Koufax refused to do), so I figure I can too.

Which is not to say that it's to be regarded casually now, anything but. But good people can do some pretty bad things, and I believe that if redemption is sincerely sought that it can usually be found.

True dat.

And don't get me wrong, Marichal was one great pitcher. But when I go to the ballpark and walk by his statue, all those negative feelings come streaming back. I wish it wasn't so.

Ah, think instead of that game where him and Spahn each pitched, what was it, 300 innings apiece?

I mean, GEE-sus, who would even TRY to do that today, much less get it done, much less not miss their next turn?

[Tim McG]

Matty Alou has died.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/ex-giant-matty-alou-72-dies/article2224588/

Sad news, indeed.

I already posted this in the Hot Stove thread, but it certainly bears repeating here.

Thanks for posting that, Russell.

[Noj]

I'm surprised the article doesn't mention his nephew Moises, who was no slouch. I guess it wasn't necessary, but I'm sure he was a source of pride for Matty. RIP

[Tim McG]

I'm surprised the article doesn't mention his nephew Moises, who was no slouch. I guess it wasn't necessary, but I'm sure he was a source of pride for Matty. RIP

I thought the same thing, Jon.

But I guess the article wanted to focus only on Matty.

BTW...I got to see all of the Alou brothers [Jesus, Matty and Felipe] play together on the same Giants team and I got to watch as Felipe Alou managed Moises when he was with the Giants.

And, not that it matters, I got to see the Orioles [and in Baltimore against the Angels] when Cal Ripken Sr. managed Cal Jr. and his brother Billy.

I love this game

Edited November 4, 2011 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

The Marichal/Roseboro thing was indeed ugly, but time has passed and they themselves have made their peace with it (Roseboro was not entirely without blame, btw, he was doing what Koufax refused to do), so I figure I can too.

Which is not to say that it's to be regarded casually now, anything but. But good people can do some pretty bad things, and I believe that if redemption is sincerely sought that it can usually be found.

True dat.

And don't get me wrong, Marichal was one great pitcher. But when I go to the ballpark and walk by his statue, all those negative feelings come streaming back. I wish it wasn't so.

Ah, think instead of that game where him and Spahn each pitched, what was it, 300 innings apiece?

I mean, GEE-sus, who would even TRY to do that today, much less get it done, much less not miss their next turn?

No argument here, Jim.

[JSngry]

Oh yeah, Greg Maddux, add him to the list. Would anybody for any game not want Greg Maddux on the mound?

[Neal Pomea]

Willie Mays, however, earned my heart when he stepped into the fry to pull the Dodger catcher out and back to the dugout. That was 100% class.

That's a very memorable image!

I saw a special on the Marichal-Roseboro incident. Not only did they become friends, but didn't Roseboro speak in favor of Marichal being inducted into the HOF? Something like that. You know, Marichal was even a Dodger at the end of his career.

[JSngry]

I saw a special on the Marichal-Roseboro incident. Not only did they become friends, but didn't Roseboro speak in favor of Marichal being inducted into the HOF? Something like that. You know, Marichal was even a Dodger at the end of his career.

You talking about the Marichal interview w/Bob Costas on MLB TV? That was great.

[Tim McG]

Oh yeah, Greg Maddux, add him to the list. Would anybody for any game not want Greg Maddux on the mound?

I saw him win #300 against my Giants.

A happy/sad day at the ballpark.

Willie Mays, however, earned my heart when he stepped into the fry to pull the Dodger catcher out and back to the dugout. That was 100% class.

That's a very memorable image!

I saw a special on the Marichal-Roseboro incident. Not only did they become friends, but didn't Roseboro speak in favor of Marichal being inducted into the HOF? Something like that. You know, Marichal was even a Dodger at the end of his career.

We don't talk about that Dodger stuff.

[Quincy]

The stats which say he was wild/walked people only reflect an average. When he was young he did that a lot. But as he matured into the position the wildness gave way to sterling pitching prowes and sheer domination on the mound. So the stats tell you nothing more than what happened, on average, over his entire career, not how he actually played it.

Since game logs are easily available on baseball-reference, we have both the averages and every game box score and stats. So one can easily look at this stuff and see that variation is such that surprise surprise, the averages do indeed show what a typical game was like. Yes, there are instances where in his wildest year as an Angel (when he averaged 6.1 walks per game) where he'd only walk 2 and others where he'd walk 8. But in 18 games out of 37 starts he walked 6 or 7. That's pretty much your typical average. If you were to go to the ballpark it was a coin flip that he'd walk 6-7 rather than some other number. But if that sort of thing bothers you, the logs are at your fingertips, and they can fun to look at if you're feeling nostalgic or are withdrawing from no baseball being played.

It boggles the mind sometimes to look back at how pitchers were allowed to go so deep into games before the relief specialists came about, even when you remember this being the case. Forget your garden variety complete games, 3 times he went into extra innings that year. An 11 inning with 7 walks and "just" 11 Ks. 10 innings against the expansion Blue Jays with 5 walks and 19 Ks. Just look at the end of April to the end of May. Following a game he lost in the 10th he isn't allowed to finish the last out in the 9th. After that a run of complete games for May.

Your arm will hurt if you check out the game logs of other aces in first years of the DH from '73 to the end of the '70s, be it the hall of famers or guys like Mickey Lolich. The attitude was "if you don't ever have to bat for the pitcher, then let him pitch."

As far as great starters of the past 40 some years, Pedro Martinez had 6 years out of 7 (1 lost due to injury) where he ruled the world. Just because 1 year of greatness happened in Montreal is no reason to forget this, nor is his odd "I don't want to be like Walter Payton in the Super Bowl" World Series moment in 2004 a reason to discount it either (or trying to take The Gerbil's head off.)

[PHILLYQ]

The stats which say he was wild/walked people only reflect an average. When he was young he did that a lot. But as he matured into the position the wildness gave way to sterling pitching prowes and sheer domination on the mound. So the stats tell you nothing more than what happened, on average, over his entire career, not how he actually played it.

Since game logs are easily available on baseball-reference, we have both the averages and every game box score and stats. So one can easily look at this stuff and see that variation is such that surprise surprise, the averages do indeed show what a typical game was like. Yes, there are instances where in his wildest year as an Angel (when he averaged 6.1 walks per game) where he'd only walk 2 and others where he'd walk 8. But in 18 games out of 37 starts he walked 6 or 7. That's pretty much your typical average. If you were to go to the ballpark it was a coin flip that he'd walk 6-7 rather than some other number. But if that sort of thing bothers you, the logs are at your fingertips, and they can fun to look at if you're feeling nostalgic or are withdrawing from no baseball being played.

It boggles the mind sometimes to look back at how pitchers were allowed to go so deep into games before the relief specialists came about, even when you remember this being the case. Forget your garden variety complete games, 3 times he went into extra innings that year. An 11 inning with 7 walks and "just" 11 Ks. 10 innings against the expansion Blue Jays with 5 walks and 19 Ks. Just look at the end of April to the end of May. Following a game he lost in the 10th he isn't allowed to finish the last out in the 9th. After that a run of complete games for May.

Your arm will hurt if you check out the game logs of other aces in first years of the DH from '73 to the end of the '70s, be it the hall of famers or guys like Mickey Lolich. The attitude was "if you don't ever have to bat for the pitcher, then let him pitch."

As far as great starters of the past 40 some years, Pedro Martinez had 6 years out of 7 (1 lost due to injury) where he ruled the world. Just because 1 year of greatness happened in Montreal is no reason to forget this, nor is his odd "I don't want to be like Walter Payton in the Super Bowl" World Series moment in 2004 a reason to discount it either (or trying to take The Gerbil's head off.)

There was a game he pitched against the Yankees that was one of the most dominant pitching performances I've ever seen. He gave up one hit(a HR by Chili Davis), walked none and struck out 18! A ground ball was a moral victory for the Yanks in that game.Pedro was pitching at 97-98 over the corners and the ball was wigglin'. Absolutely amazing.

[MartyJazz]

I hesitate to begin a 2012 MLB Season thread so early, and since we're still in 2011 what do you all think about Bobby Valentine taking over as mgr of the Red Sox?

[Dan Gould]

I hesitate to begin a 2012 MLB Season thread so early, and since we're still in 2011 what do you all think about Bobby Valentine taking over as mgr of the Red Sox?

Why shouldn't a managerial change in November be part of the existing Hot Stove discussion?

[MartyJazz]

You're correct. Strangely believe it, I wasn't aware of the existing Hot Stove discussion when I posted about Valentine.

[alocispepraluger102]

I hesitate to begin a 2012 MLB Season thread so early, and since we're still in 2011 what do you all think about Bobby Valentine taking over as mgr of the Red Sox?

francona was right for the salty old timers on the red sox.

the abrasive valentine is guaranteed to evoke sparks. it will be interesting to see how he takes to their sabermetrics.

[vajerzy]

I'm surprised the article doesn't mention his nephew Moises, who was no slouch. I guess it wasn't necessary, but I'm sure he was a source of pride for Matty. RIP

Moises had the quietest swing I've ever seen. When I say quiet, I mean no hitches or load-ups as the pitch is coming in. He was like a statue at the plate and when the pitch was coming.

Dave Winfield and Steve Garvey were the opposite.

[Chuck Nessa]

Go Cubz.

[JSngry]

Dammit...game called, Mitch Moreland's slam no longer exists.

Tonight, one has come and taken its place.

Sometimes life is fair, even if on its own terms and at its own pace. Love it when that happens.