What to Reissue Number Two

[John L]

Example from my view ....., is Julius Hemphill Dogon A.D,

Just as a matter of interest (to me at least), why has Dogon A.D. never had a proper, official release?

I assume that it has to do with complications in obtaining rights from the Hemphill estate. I know that Tim Berne was planning to release it on his label, but gave up.

[B. Clugston]

Example from my view ....., is Julius Hemphill Dogon A.D,

Just as a matter of interest (to me at least), why has Dogon A.D. never had a proper, official release?

I assume that it has to do with complications in obtaining rights from the Hemphill estate. I know that Tim Berne was planning to release it on his label, but gave up.

Berne had it up as a download for a while on his site. It is a classic! Maybe the fact Freedom issued it at one point complicated the rights.

[ep1str0phy]

Yeah, you can't really ask people on a jazz forum to narrow something down.

I often ask myself whether just because something's rare and musically awesome, does it need to be reissued? That's why I stopped doing the "Reissue This" column for Paris Transatlantic. Not to mention that it started to feed into the share-bloggers' scene, which as useful as that can sometimes be for temporarily filling gaps, is also a big part of why I am so unsure about the viability of reissuing certain things outside a deluxe form. Most older stuff that people want - and how people listen to music is certainly less object-oriented today than it was even five years ago - is downloadable.

The Dixon looks and sounds great - as do Nessa's recent single and double-disc projects. These are both rare instances. As a record collector as well as a critic, this is kind of ironic, but in my mind it is really hard to justify spending the money on reissuing most lesser-known dates. This goes for people doing labels as well as consumers. Do 1,000 people NEED to hear the Ric Colbeck record? As fine as that record is (and I've sung its praises many times), reissuing it at this point seems kind of absurd. Three of the four participants are dead and the record is easily downloadable. If you have $50 to spare, you can buy the original - it comes around on eBay. I agree with Paul - most of the "classics" are out (or have been out) already, and the rest... are just good records. Now, unheard/unissued music from the archives is another story for another thread.

Sorry to be cynical about this, but unless it's something really cornerstone that one is prepared to do right (or it's really stunning material that's never been out in any form), I'm all for putting money behind the next young(er) player's project. Hooray for the next fifty years, as Anthony Braxton might say.

The irony is that if virtually anything of what's left to reissues does get reissued, the project will by default cater to a niche market. It's a threefold (or more) dilemma: (1) the decline of the CD, (2) the marginal appeal of jazz/creative music, and (3) the very marginal appeal of relatively old (if not dated) music, performed by folks who have largely shuffled off this mortal coil.

Which is not to say that there isn't value in reissuing Intents and Purposes, the Carter/Bradford music, etc.--there's definite historical and cultural value in having this music widely available in audiophile format that does at least some physical justice (contra the very apparent seediness of the blogosphere) to the music. And, hell, to have the physical product in my hands, and to prop it up alongside the past 30 or so years of CD progress, is gratifying from a collector's standpoint. Also, insofar as these releases are legal, there are very definite questions of legitimacy and monetary rights involved--that has been and will continue to be a problem (although legal digital downloads, which I'll admit I've started to move toward in recent times, offset this issue somewhat).

But--and I remember this clearly from the first readily available, pre-blogosphere (though not pre-torrent, I think) download offer--back when Tim Berne put Dogon A.D. up on the Screwgun website--it comes down, for the most part, to hearing this music at all. I'd by a cleaned up issue of Dogon in a heartbeat, but that's because in the years subsequent my first exposure to the album (which was then), I became the niche market. The point was that I got to hear that black market, raggedy-ass rip in the first place--and that listening, back then, was clearly more important than any audiophile experience of subsequent years.

Granted this, I think I get the biggest thrill these days seeing archival music make it to CD. I'm eagerly, eagerly anticipating when that early Roscoe quartet CD--having heard like two minutes of it back when I was at Mills--makes it out to the masses.

And I know this poops on the parade and misses the point entirely, but listen to new music (not saying that you don't if your interest is in "old" music in any way, shape, etc.). Thank heavens you do, Clifford. I'm out at shows/playing basically every night of the week, and I'm consistently amazed at the brilliant, invisible music being created by folks young and old--in places most people will never find.

[paul secor]

Yeah, you can't really ask people on a jazz forum to narrow something down.

I often ask myself whether just because something's rare and musically awesome, does it need to be reissued? That's why I stopped doing the "Reissue This" column for Paris Transatlantic. Not to mention that it started to feed into the share-bloggers' scene, which as useful as that can sometimes be for temporarily filling gaps, is also a big part of why I am so unsure about the viability of reissuing certain things outside a deluxe form. Most older stuff that people want - and how people listen to music is certainly less object-oriented today than it was even five years ago - is downloadable.

The Dixon looks and sounds great - as do Nessa's recent single and double-disc projects. These are both rare instances. As a record collector as well as a critic, this is kind of ironic, but in my mind it is really hard to justify spending the money on reissuing most lesser-known dates. This goes for people doing labels as well as consumers. Do 1,000 people NEED to hear the Ric Colbeck record? As fine as that record is (and I've sung its praises many times), reissuing it at this point seems kind of absurd. Three of the four participants are dead and the record is easily downloadable. If you have $50 to spare, you can buy the original - it comes around on eBay. I agree with Paul - most of the "classics" are out (or have been out) already, and the rest... are just good records. Now, unheard/unissued music from the archives is another story for another thread.

Sorry to be cynical about this, but unless it's something really cornerstone that one is prepared to do right (or it's really stunning material that's never been out in any form), I'm all for putting money behind the next young(er) player's project. Hooray for the next fifty years, as Anthony Braxton might say.

The irony is that if virtually anything of what's left to reissues does get reissued, the project will by default cater to a niche market. It's a threefold (or more) dilemma: (1) the decline of the CD, (2) the marginal appeal of jazz/creative music, and (3) the very marginal appeal of relatively old (if not dated) music, performed by folks who have largely shuffled off this mortal coil.

Which is not to say that there isn't value in reissuing Intents and Purposes, the Carter/Bradford music, etc.--there's definite historical and cultural value in having this music widely available in audiophile format that does at least some physical justice (contra the very apparent seediness of the blogosphere) to the music. And, hell, to have the physical product in my hands, and to prop it up alongside the past 30 or so years of CD progress, is gratifying from a collector's standpoint. Also, insofar as these releases are legal, there are very definite questions of legitimacy and monetary rights involved--that has been and will continue to be a problem (although legal digital downloads, which I'll admit I've started to move toward in recent times, offset this issue somewhat).

But--and I remember this clearly from the first readily available, pre-blogosphere (though not pre-torrent, I think) download offer--back when Tim Berne put Dogon A.D. up on the Screwgun website--it comes down, for the most part, to hearing this music at all. I'd by a cleaned up issue of Dogon in a heartbeat, but that's because in the years subsequent my first exposure to the album (which was then), I became the niche market. The point was that I got to hear that black market, raggedy-ass rip in the first place--and that listening, back then, was clearly more important than any audiophile experience of subsequent years.

Granted this, I think I get the biggest thrill these days seeing archival music make it to CD. I'm eagerly, eagerly anticipating when that early Roscoe quartet CD--having heard like two minutes of it back when I was at Mills--makes it out to the masses.

And I know this poops on the parade and misses the point entirely, but listen to new music (not saying that you don't if your interest is in "old" music in any way, shape, etc.). Thank heavens you do, Clifford. I'm out at shows/playing basically every night of the week, and I'm consistently amazed at the brilliant, invisible music being created by folks young and old--in places most people will never find.

Amen to listening to new music. Don't do enough of that myself. But I'll also support well done, legal reissues such as the Dixon Intents and Purposes apparently is - haven't heard it yet - and such as the Nessa reissues. I have my fears that if the bootleggers and illegal downloaders win out - they may have already - there won't be nearly as much newly recorded music, simply because it won't be economically viable.

Edited March 31, 2011 by paul secor

[ep1str0phy]

I hear you, but man, it's kind of not economically viable. (And now for a quick rant that I'm sure everyone already knows the lyrics to:) This lifestyle isn't economically viable. In terms of playing any sort of creative music whatsoever--and even when playing most commercial music--no one gets without augmenting the music a bit (teaching, recording, and commercial gigs if you're lucky).

The upside is that it's easier to record--especially to quick and dirty record--now than ever. The downside is that the LP & CD era infrastructures of information dispersal are either defunct or very quickly becoming outdated. Whether it's harder now that it was or will be, I don't know--but it is, without a doubt, difficult for the "right" music to find the "right" audience these days. This is without a doubt compounded by the fact that this already extremely un-lucrative art form is overbrimming with talent.

At the same time, I don't know if anyone in the trenches makes their money from recording (the consensus from my sample out here in the Bay is that most money comes from live performances, which I can corroborate. My sense is that this has always been the case). And I have had an interesting exchange or two with some musician friends, the conclusion being that people like us (music-addicted musicians, who are music 24/7, as well as intensely music invested people like musician and non-musician alike on the boards here) are not the problem. We will (hypothetically) download 100 albums and go out and spend on 100 more. The problem with the blogosphere is that it will substitute a cursory, dashed off listen to music that it's taken musicians decades to absorb as "knowledge" in the subject; this is a broad generalization, but it's easier now than ever to have an amazing record collection and be an "expert" in something where expertise involves life and not volume.

The problem with "us"--the musicians, the not-problem people--is that the art is forced to conform to/be defined by its extremes. This includes people just now figuring out who the Brotherhood of Breath are, illegally downloading the group's entire discography in an hour, "loving it," and moving on. Not that we have to do this, too--it's just that we have to live in a world where, unfortunately, it's just not soluble to reissue most stuff (and I'm sure the Dixon issue is a labor of love), and it's not logical to expect that any new audience will pay for things, hearing unheard.

BUT--I've sold tons of albums at live shows. I've had some very well attended live shows that have netted us earnings. Sometimes no one shows up and you and the venue lose money--but if the music is happening, then you're alive. I also know that this sort of enthusiasm can infect the audience--this drives more people to shows, more people to buy the albums, and even if we're not talking sextuple or quintuple or even four figures, it's enough to keep the music going (no matter what anyone else does).

[gmonahan]

I don't think Phil Woods' live 2-lp set "Live at the Showboat" has ever been issued *complete* on cd. There was an abridged version years ago on Novus. I think it's one of his best sets and would consider it something of a classic.

Lon's right about the Ellington.

gregmo

[Late]

Sam Rivers - Sizzle

I am not aware of it having been issued on CD.

I love all of the Rivers trio work I've heard — both the horn-bass-drums trio and the horn-tuba-drums trio. Sizzle is an excellent record. The cover art (if it matters) is fairly ugly however.

I keep bidding (and losing) on Japanese versions of Streams on eBay.

I'm buying Dogon A.D. when it comes out.

[clifford_thornton]

Sam Rivers - Sizzle

I am not aware of it having been issued on CD. Amazon has a used LP available for $89.99.

$80 more than it costs whenever I see it in shops!

[ep1str0phy]

Sam Rivers - Sizzle

I am not aware of it having been issued on CD.

I love all of the Rivers trio work I've heard — both the horn-bass-drums trio and the horn-tuba-drums trio. Sizzle is an excellent record. The cover art (if it matters) is fairly ugly however.

I keep bidding (and losing) on Japanese versions of Streams on eBay.

I'm buying Dogon A.D. when it comes out.

I've seen Streams for as low as $40 in person. The vinyl suits me just fine, honestly, since it's probably middling 80's/early 90's digital mastering (judging from some of the other OOP Impulse imports I've gotten).

[JSngry]

I'm going to just throw another one in the ring for a 3-CD box of Marion Brown's 1970s Impulse LPs/related material. That music is essential and needs reevaluation. I think they've been out on CD in Japan, but a Mosaic Select or similar style box for the broader market would be much appreciated and quite valued.

Seconded.

I stand by my request for A Drum Is a Woman, expanded. I think that's a classic session.

Seconded, but I'm not sure if it falls withing the OP's scope of either interest or financial ability to bring to fruition.

OP, what's the word?

[Larry Kart]

I remember watching "A Drum Is A Woman" on the U.S. Steel Hour at age 14 in May 1957 -- the feeling of intense anticipation, then acute embarrassment. Madame Zajj? The IIRC (to use an old S.J. Perelman phrase) "fire in a whorehouse" choreography? Perhaps I wasn't equipped to get it.

[Chuck Nessa]

None of the proposals make economic sense. My issues do not make economic sense. We do stuff because we want to, we can and our families have not stopped us.

JLH has listed his priorities - pay attention to them and respond accordingly (with some sense of the possible).

[Rooster_Ties]

A genuine an respectful question, Chuck.

Are there any titles you can think of, that both fit JLH's criteria, and make economic sense?

Edited April 1, 2011 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

JLH has listed his priorities - pay attention to them and respond accordingly (with some sense of the possible).

Is getting a two-CD Ellington set out of BMG/Sony's hands possible for an independent interest?

If so, then seconded on A Drum...

[Rooster_Ties]

I fear nothing short of dates from Miles Davis' euro-tour in late '67 (and the like), would even remotely sell enough to be considered worth the investment (purely from an economic perspective).

AND YET, look at all the wild and crazy shit that continues to become available from Dusty Groove. How does THAT stuff get reissued, while virtually none of the suggestions already proposed make sense?

I could cite 50 discs currently available on the Dusty site (maybe more like 100), that seem no more commercially viable than the suggestions here.

Perplexed.

[Chuck Nessa]

No payments to artists or owners for a bunch of them. Not much studio cost if you are copying previous issues.

You should try this stuff and see how it works.

[jonathanhorwich]

Dear All, Thanks for all the great responses. A few points that might help. Firstly as earlier stated The Bill Dixon Intents and Purposes reissue is very legal. As legal as you can get. Papers signed galore. Same with Dogon A.D. I have the masters here in my studio right now. Sent to me by the owner of the rights. I don't put out illegal music. Period. If I put it out I have complete legal clearance that will stand in a court of law. I say this to put to rest any question or concern about legal rights when I issue anything. So everyone can rest easy. It will never happen under my watch.

Secondly, economic concern on my part is not huge. But it is some concern. If I can't sell at least 500 copies I take a hit. If I can sell 1000 that is viable. If something is a stone cold classic, no question, then I'll put it out and damn the money. (I make my money outside jazz and do not and never have relied on it for my survival.) Hence the Bill Dixon no matter what it sells. Same with the Hemphill. These are historic moments in jazz and I'm putting them out. Just as Mr. Nessa says. Because I want to. Same for Steig Flute Fever. Those three are coming out. Money or not.

Hence, my first priority is a stone classic or at least killer performance that is undeniably so.

None of this has anything to do with the future or young players playing now. The playing now is fabulous. Some of the stuff I get is so good I'm shocked. But I've decided in my publications to focus on classic jazz never issued on CD. That's just my focus now. Again, because I want to. And that Dixon and Hemphill aren't out on CD is wrong in my mind. Same with Steig (who I argued with for a year before he let me get the rights from Sony. He had the same view as some of the contributors to this forum about old music and it being in the past). I understand that view. But it just isn't my view right now.

Hope this helps in seeing my vision and what I'm looking at in these reissues.

Jonathan

[Late]

Just listened to this record in total. Stone classic? Maybe, maybe not. Killer performance? Absolutely!

Details:

Date: ca. 1972

Location: New York City

Label: Savoy

Bill Barron (ts), Kenny Barron (p), Chris White (b), Al Hicks (d)

1. Motivation (Bill Barron) 10:22

2. Land of Sunshine (Bill Barron) 3:26

3. Blues for R. A. (Bill Barron) 6:15

4. Cosmos (Kenny Barron) 9:47

5. Hold Back Tomorrow (Bill Barron) 5:12

6. Mental Vibrations (Bill Barron) 4:01

All titles on: Savoy LP 12": 12303 — Motivation

The title track really is killer. Not so much in a burning way, but in a makes-you-think and not-copying-Coltrane way. Authentic stuff. Barron is Barron, just like Joe Henderson is Joe Henderson. No overriding influence. Al Hicks on drums sounds like a blend of Elvin Jones (primary) + Max Roach & Louis Hayes (secondary). Super clean, polyrhythmic solos. Tasty, not too long, and razor sharp.

I don't know how to post sound clips, but if there's interest, I can try.

I'll stay behind this one record as my personal vote for a JLH reissue so to not overload the thread. I know of course it doesn't make economical sense. But neither do wide sideburns ... yet.

[JSngry]

I'll stay behind this one record as my personal vote for a JLH reissue so to not overload the thread.

I'm with you on this one. I wish more people (anybody?) had heard & lived with Iapetus for a while, but Motivation is, like Iapetus, a wholly unique record that has been virtually unheard.

Edited April 1, 2011 by JSngry

[colinmce]

Seconded/thirded.

I'm going to just throw another one in the ring for a 3-CD box of Marion Brown's 1970s Impulse LPs/related material. That music is essential and needs reevaluation. I think they've been out on CD in Japan, but a Mosaic Select or similar style box for the broader market would be much appreciated and quite valued.

My thoughts on that:

[Head Man]

I don't think Phil Woods' live 2-lp set "Live at the Showboat" has ever been issued *complete* on cd. There was an abridged version years ago on Novus. I think it's one of his best sets and would consider it something of a classic.

Lon's right about the Ellington.

gregmo

The complete concert has been released on CD in Japan. I agree that it's one of his best, but a classic?...I'm not so sure. Anyway it deserves to be more widely heard.

[Late]

I'll stay behind this one record as my personal vote for a JLH reissue so to not overload the thread.

I'm with you on this one. I wish more people (anybody?) had heard & lived with Iapetus for a while, but Motivation is, like Iapetus, a wholly unique record that has been virtually unheard.

As I type, I'm listening to Iapetus on headphones. I gotta say — this really is a great record. More than Motivation, I think, this is a band effort. While Caliman is clearly the leader on the session, the rhythm section has that feel (not muscially, but socially) of the great Hancock-Carter-Williams team. It's weird — tenor players working today would eat this up, I'd think. Meaning, I can't believe that this session hasn't seen a reissue anywhere. The record, though it bears traces of its recording year, has an unusually modern feel to it. This is to say that the music, almost note for note, might easily be heard in a hip club anywhere in the world today.

Jonas Kulhammar reissued Utan Misstankar on Moserobie. (Don't know that rekkid? Get it here ... quick! An absolutely brilliant 1965 Swedish in/out session.) Other titles, just as obscure, will be rescued at some point by like-minded individuals.

[Rooster_Ties]

How is Caliman's "Celebration" from 1977?? Lineup sure looks good...

hadley caliman (ts, fl)

hotep cecil barnard (p)

david williams (b)

elvin jones (d)

[Niko]

out on cd in japan...

[gmonahan]

I remember watching "A Drum Is A Woman" on the U.S. Steel Hour at age 14 in May 1957 -- the feeling of intense anticipation, then acute embarrassment. Madame Zajj? The IIRC (to use an old S.J. Perelman phrase) "fire in a whorehouse" choreography? Perhaps I wasn't equipped to get it.

I've heard that from some others who watched it. I have the feeling it listens far better than it watched!

gregmo