medjuck Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm listening to a lot of early Stan Getz and just noticed that most of the Roost recordings clock in at just under 3 minutes but the first Prestige recordings are all closer to 4 minutes long. I presume the latter were 12' releases. Were they common? Mainly jazz or classical? And what were the time limits for 10" and 12" recordings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcrom Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 12" 78s were very common for classical releases, less so for other kinds of music. 12" jazz 78s were uncommon, but not unheard of - Blue Note and Commodore kind of specialized in 12" releases. A have a fancy Victor 12" album called Symposium in Swing with discs by Benny Goodman, Bunny Berigan, Tommy Dorsey, and Fats Waller. I can't speak to whether Getz's Prestige sides were issued on 12-inchers; I'm not aware of any 12" Prestige 78 issues, but that doesn't mean there weren't any. Three and a half minutes was about the limit of a 10" 78; a little over five minutes for a 12" disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stereojack Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 I'm listening to a lot of early Stan Getz and just noticed that most of the Roost recordings clock in at just under 3 minutes but the first Prestige recordings are all closer to 4 minutes long. I presume the latter were 12' releases. Were they common? Mainly jazz or classical? And what were the time limits for 10" and 12" recordings? I have never seen a Prestige 12" 78, nor do I believe any were issued. I've seen many Stan Getz Prestige 78's, amd they have all been 10". Of course, 12" was the norm for classical recordings. Specialist jazz labels such as Commodore and Blue Note did issue a number of 12" discs in the 1940's. Major labels such as Victor and Columbia dabbled, but mostly stuck to the 10" format. Generally, 10" 78's play for about 3 minutes, 12" 78's play for about 4 1/2 minutes. By the 1950's, the LP and EP had supplanted 12" 78's in the marketplace for longer performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted March 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 "Battleground" is 3:21, "4 and Moore" 3:45 and "Battle of the Saxes" 3:51. Could you get that much on a 10"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 My 78s say so, but the sound suffers......Must say it is hard to tell about sound degradation on some Prestige 78s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 The only 12" 78 I ever owned (and the only one I ever saw, I think) was a two or three disc 'album'... The Art Tatum Trio (with Stewart and Grimes). It was on Asch, I think. David Stone Martin cover art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Brown Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) medjuck asks how common 12" 78s were. Well, when I began collecting jazz recordings in 1949 I don't recall seeing all that many, but I did manage to end up with an even dozen. On major labels there were things like Goodman's Sing,Sing,Sing, Duke's Black, Brown and Beige (two discs), Artie Shaw's Concerto for Clarinet, and Fats Waller's Ain't Misbehavin' (backed by Moppin' and Boppin') from the film soundtrack of Stormy Weather. On Blue Note I had a couple of titles from the James P.Johnson session with Ben Webster as a sideman, then there were the two wonderful Comet discs (four titles) by Red Norvo with Dizzy, Bird, Flip Phillips, Teddy Wilson, Slam Stewart and J.C.Heard. There was also a single Comet by Cyril "Spider" Haynes that had Don Byas on tenor. And I can't forget the 12-inch Signature with what I still consider to be the best thing Coleman Hawkins ever recorded - The Man I Love. A teen-age Shelly Manne was the drummer on that date and the one and only Oscar Pettiford was the bassist. I also seem to recall having a 12 inch Blue Note by Sidney Bechet. Probably Summertime. Edited March 19, 2011 by Don Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Not at all common, as far as jazz was concerned. I had a couple of Blue Notes, a few Commodores, the mentioned Waller Victor disc (with 2 California recordings, as I recall), a Sinatra/Duke coupling on Columbia, and some great Basie and Hines on the Danish Tono label. There were no 12" Prestige 78s, as I recall, but Bob Weinstock issued some 12" vinyl (including the MJQ) at a very slow speed. The frequency range left much to be desired, but not a bad sound—trouble was that few people had the turntable that could handle that speed. The Comet Norvos were issued in Denmark on 10" 78s, but they were mastered with some kind of (cutting edge?) variable groove process that gave them the same playing time as 12" discs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 I had some Hot Club Of France 78's which I sold for not much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Johnson Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Are we including classical in the mix? If so, I have several sets of symphonies (mostly Beethoven and a few Brahms) on 12" 78's. All bound together in a book. Lots of flipping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 I have a dozen or two jazz 12 inchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 ...but Bob Weinstock issued some 12" vinyl (including the MJQ) at a very slow speed. The frequency range left much to be desired, but not a bad sound—trouble was that few people had the turntable that could handle that speed. What speed was that? I'm aware of 78, 45, 33 1/3, & 16-ish RPM's (forget if the 16 had a fraction after it), but I've not heard of any other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcrom Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Are we including classical in the mix? If so, I have several sets of symphonies (mostly Beethoven and a few Brahms) on 12" 78's. All bound together in a book. Lots of flipping! I said in my post that 12-inchers were common for classical releases. I tend to avoid 78 RPM classical sets that involve breaking up long pieces onto several record sides, but I love those early Victor Red Seal 78s of the early 20th century classical masters - Caruso, Stokowski, Mischa Elman, Alfred Cortot, etc. To me, the original 78s are the best way to hear them. ...but Bob Weinstock issued some 12" vinyl (including the MJQ) at a very slow speed. The frequency range left much to be desired, but not a bad sound—trouble was that few people had the turntable that could handle that speed. What speed was that? I'm aware of 78, 45, 33 1/3, & 16-ish RPM's (forget if the 16 had a fraction after it), but I've not heard of any other. Those would be 16 RPM releases. I never had any of the Prestige 16 RPM releases, but I had a few kids' records that played at 16 back when I was a tot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 They were 16 rpm and I should have kept them when I sold my 18,000 vinyls to my late friend, Karl Emil Knudsen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 V Discs were all 12" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 They were 16 rpm..... More accurately, wouldn't they be 16 and 2/3 (16.666)? Half of 33.33, which would make it easier to manufacture/convert the playback machines. I think there were Caedmon spoken word recordings at that speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Brown Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 I had a 16 2/3 Prestige release called Prestige All Stars - Modern Jazz Survey: Baritones and French Horns. The baritones were Cecil Payne and Pepper Adams with Coltrane on tenor, and Mal Waldron, Doug Watkins and Art Taylor in the rhythm section. Selections included Dakar and Witches Pit. That was side one of the LP. Side two was by the Julius Watkins/David Amram Octet. I had a turntable that would play these discs but the music still sounded distorted to my ears which were still functional at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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