The Loudness War

[Blue Train]

http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/23/the-loudness-war/

and

http://www.turnmeup.org/

[John L]

What about the opposite of compression? During the early days of CDs, I am sure that the dynamic range was often exaggerated on a number of releases, evidently to highlight one of the "advantages" of digital technology. I have some classical symphonies that are almost unlistenable for that reason. Either the soft parts are inaudible or the loud passages blow out the speakers. In other words, the dynamic range of the CD went far beyond what would have been the case live in a concert hall or studio.

[Shawn]

One of the advantages of LPs making a comeback is having a choice for a more dynamic version of the recording instead of the brickwalled mess that almost all CDs are now.

Here's a good example:

Here is the LP wave form of the song Ghost Of Perdition by Opeth (released 2005). This looks like a wave form should, lots of peaks and valleys.

Here is the CD release of the same song, all the louder segments are completely squared off and the dynamics have been seriously compromised.

The Dynamic Range of the LP is 12db.

The Dynamic Range of the CD is 7db.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Shawn

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

  On 7/29/2013 at 4:57 PM, Shawn said:

One of the advantages of LPs making a comeback is having a choice for a more dynamic version of the recording instead of the brickwalled mess that almost all CDs are now.

Here's a good example:

Here is the LP wave form of the song Ghost Of Perdition by Opeth (released 2005). This looks like a wave form should, lots of peaks and valleys.

Here is the CD release of the same song, all the louder segments are completely squared off and the dynamics have been seriously compromised.

The Dynamic Range of the LP is 12db.

The Dynamic Range of the CD is 7db.

Thanks for posting this. I can't understand what I'm looking at, however, so here are a few questions.

1 Are these pics of time? ie starting at LHS and working through the tune until ending at RHS? Or does it read like Hebrew & Arabic?

2 Why are there two pairs of graphs? Do they represent the bass and treble controls being set differently for different run-throughs? Or are they left and right hand channels of a stereo recording?

3 Why does each graph have peaks above and below zero? Do these represent bass and treble clefs?

4 When you talk about the graphs of the CD being squared off, what it looks like to me is that the numbers just go off the scale - so how do we know that the graphs don't keep their basic shape when the numbers are bigger? (Or smaller in the bass clef.)

5 I can't see anything in the graph to support a 12 or 7 db range for anything. Does that information come from a different source?

MG

[jeffcrom]

  On 7/29/2013 at 6:23 PM, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

Thanks for posting this. I can't understand what I'm looking at, however, so here are a few questions.

1 Are these pics of time? ie starting at LHS and working through the tune until ending at RHS? Or does it read like Hebrew & Arabic?

Yes - here's a very basic two-paragraph explanation of what you're seeing.

2 Why are there two pairs of graphs? Do they represent the bass and treble controls being set differently for different run-throughs? Or are they left and right hand channels of a stereo recording?

Your second guess is correct - the two stereo channels.

3 Why does each graph have peaks above and below zero? Do these represent bass and treble clefs?

These are digital representations of sound waves, which are pressure waves. Generally, every positive increase in air pressure created by a sound wave is followed by a more-or-less equivalent decrease in pressure - hence a wave. The first few paragraphs here might make more sense.

4 When you talk about the graphs of the CD being squared off, what it looks like to me is that the numbers just go off the scale - so how do we know that the graphs don't keep their basic shape when the numbers are bigger? (Or smaller in the bass clef.)

There's nothing off the scale - what you see is what there is. The engineer digitally compressed the sound so that the dynamic differences in the louder sections have disappeared - everything above a certain level is now at the same volume.

5 I can't see anything in the graph to support a 12 or 7 db range for anything. Does that information come from a different source?

Don't know the answer to this. Shawn?

MG

[Blue Train]

1. Left to right like reading in English.

2. L & R

3. Yes

4. The more it gets closer to the limit the more distorted. The engineer will clip it off once it passes the limit, which is represented by 1 and -1 in the above graph.

5. The graph makes it hard to see the difference numerically.

This shows a better set of graphs.

http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm

The graph for Ricky Martin's - Livin' La Vida Loca

Edited July 29, 2013 by Blue Train

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks Jeff & BT - I now get why there are no peaks beyond the graph - there are no possible numbers beyond the graph.

Well, back in the early 60s, EMI used to make loud and quiet pressings of (some) 45s. My friend and I bought copies of Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers' "That's what I said' on the day it came out in 1961. Mine, bought in Central London, was a loud one; hers, bought in West London, was a quiet one, which we proved by playing them one after another. I also had a loud copies of 'You can't sit down' by Phil Upchurch, which was issued on HMV here, and Ray Charles' 'Sticks and stones'.

Loud pressings were, regrettably, easy to break. The only one I've still got is Screaming Lord Sutch's 'Til the following night'.

What causes this? Is it a compression thing or something entirely different?

MG

[mikeweil]

I don't see them as being exaggerated. We are accustomed to a narrower dynamic range from the limits of tape and vinyl. Musicians were asked to narrow their dynamics, especially drummers, to fit that range. We're so used to that by our listening habits that we no longer know how wide the dynamic range of a drum set really is. Place yourself in front of one and then let the drummer take you from a whisper to a scream, and then name a recording that mirrors that range. I have a few, and they sound unnatural to most people. It's mostly listening habits.

p.s. this refers to John L's post # 27

[paul secor]

Unfortunately, many drummers take you from a shout to a scream.

[J.A.W.]

  On 7/29/2013 at 9:23 PM, paul secor said:

Unfortunately, many drummers take you from a shout to a scream.

[mikeweil]

Yes I agree - they un-learned using dynamics because they have to hit hard to hear themselves or make themselves heard and to keep a certain groove, which is harder to do when you're playing softly. When there is ampfification, the sound technicians ruin your dynamics, anyway.

[paul secor]

It's always a pleasure to listen to a drummer who has a sense of dynamics. Fairly rare these days.

[TedR]

  On 7/30/2013 at 11:37 AM, paul secor said:

It's always a pleasure to listen to a drummer who has a sense of dynamics. Fairly rare these days.

That reminds me when I saw Louis Bellson play with the Columbus (Ohio) Jazz Arts Group in the late seventies. To this day he was one of the most musical drummers I ever heard. I believe he introduced Jo Jones who was in the audience that night. (Don't mean to take this into another direction, but it was a wonderful memory.)

[Head Man]

I've been playing my Japanese Verve (UCCV-9329) CD of Lee Konitz's "You and Lee" this morning and find the sound to be very harsh and unpleasant. Does anyone one know whether this is yet another remastered release that is a victim of the "loudness wars" or is it just my hearing that's going?

PS is there some simple software that I could use to show the dynamic range of the CD?

[Teasing the Korean]

  On 7/29/2013 at 7:14 AM, John L said:

What about the opposite of compression? During the early days of CDs, I am sure that the dynamic range was often exaggerated on a number of releases, evidently to highlight one of the "advantages" of digital technology. I have some classical symphonies that are almost unlistenable for that reason. Either the soft parts are inaudible or the loud passages blow out the speakers. In other words, the dynamic range of the CD went far beyond what would have been the case live in a concert hall or studio.

This drives me absolutely insane. On a few CDs, I've had to go in and manually adjust levels and burn it back onto a disc. They sound great now, but I don't think I should have to spend time finishing someone else's album.

[mjzee]

There are also CDs that are mastered too softly. Two that I can think of are Lee Konitz's Round & Round and Kevin Eubanks's Live At Bradley's. I had to use Amadeus to make them louder.

[J.A.W.]

  On 8/6/2013 at 8:16 AM, Head Man said:

I've been playing my Japanese Verve (UCCV-9329) CD of Lee Konitz's "You and Lee" this morning and find the sound to be very harsh and unpleasant. Does anyone one know whether this is yet another remastered release that is a victim of the "loudness wars" or is it just my hearing that's going?

PS is there some simple software that I could use to show the dynamic range of the CD?

Haven't heard this particular CD, but other Universal Japan remasters I've heard that came out in the last 10-15 years also suffer from boosted highs and loudness.

[Clunky]

I've a couple of the relatively recent Leo Wright Atlantic CDs from Japan and whilst they're loud they sound pretty good to my analog ears.

[Head Man]

  On 8/7/2013 at 4:05 PM, Clunky said:

I've a couple of the relatively recent Leo Wright Atlantic CDs from Japan and whilst they're loud they sound pretty good to my analog ears.

Yes, I have those too and they DO sound OK.

The problem I have with the Lee Konitz is that it sounds......piercing and is unpleasant to listen to. I wouldn't say it is particularly loud.

I just wondered if there was some software around that would show the dynamic range of the recording to see whether it has got a boosted treble or whatever. In the meantime I guess I just won't play it...

[Blue Train]

NIN is released two different mastered versions of their latest recording.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/28/4667966/nin-audiophile-mastered-version-hesitation-marks