Power Conditioner

[AllenLowe]

anybody wanna buy a nice Conrad Johnson pre-amp, power amp? With lotsa NOS tubes in it.

Edited September 11, 2013 by AllenLowe

[skeith]

Well, I've looked inside the darn thing. I think that if it cost 500 to repair it's worth it. I'm sure they'll go over it. There's really not that many little parts to go wrong or to be so badly aged. My answer, yes, will possibly have mine repaired in the future. You can get all kinds of power conditioning components for about 500 bucks or less, but not another power regenerator . . . .

thanks Lon for your comments!

[mjzee]

I'd like to update this topic. I find my new Emotiva power amp suddenly shuts off a few times a day. It looks like the fuse is protecting the system. The front panel button blinks red; I press it twice and it turns on again, no problem, but obviously something's going on in the power lines. I'm thinking I need some sort of protection, with perhaps something to smooth out the power. Some research on the web, including this thread and a similar one reveals people going for the PS Audio P300, a Monster Power that looks more like a surge suppressor, TrippLite LC1800, Belkin PureAV PF31, Shunyata Hydra 2, and some others...many of these seem discontinued. So I was wondering if people here use power conditioners that they can recommend. It seems the TrippLite has some enthusiastic users. Thoughts?

[Scott Dolan]

I'd give this a read before making your final decision.

From AVS Forums:

[[Let's break this power conditioner thing down a bit into a sort of Reader's Digest version of things.

First let's look at the surge protection aspect. The vast majority of surge protection devices that you're likely to come in contact with are based on MOV's (Metal Oxide Varistors) and/or SAD's (Silicon Avalanche Diodes) with the former being more prevalent. They work on the principal of shunting the excess voltage to ground. In other words they work like a dike whereby they divert the excess instead of trying to dam it up. The effectiveness of any surge protector, and that includes the BrickWall type devices, is directly related to the proximity to earth ground. A surge is not simply a large voltage swing or spike. A surge, especially due to lightning is a high voltage, high current, and high frequency (ies) phenomenon. As a result, although the overall resistance of your ground wire may be low, to a surge, it looks like a high impedance device. The shorter the distance to earth ground, the lower the impedance.

Surge protectors based on MOV's will typically be rated with a number called joules. The greater the joules, the more hits the MOV can take before it dies. Hence, if that's your only protection, and you're in a quandry between which two devices to pick, go with the higher numbers. Now one might think that a number like 900 joules is a lot. Well if it were located at your breaker, it would be. However for a point-of-use device, that number needs to be broken down. A surge can come in on any of the lines and as a result, one must protect all three scenarios: H-G (hot-ground), H-N (hot-neutral), and N-G (neutral ground). As a result, that 900 joules gets split among the three points of entry. Further, as mentioned above, due to the signficantly high impedance that results from the distance to earth ground, those numbers need to be derated signficantly to arrive at an effective joules. Somewhere around 30-40% less protection is actually available.

Now if you're looking to protect your HT system, then all points of ingress need to run through your point of use device. That includes all plugs and the cable. If you haven't addressed them all, then you leave open the possibility that a surge comes in the back door. **** happens you know.

So what then is power conditioning? It means different things to different people. If you need voltage stabilization, then a voltage stabilizer becomes a power conditioner. If you've got components that have problems with ground leakage, then a balanced power unit becomes a power conditioner. You can see with just these two examples that it's a loose definition.

Most devices always include some sort of emi/rfi filtering. This is achieved by things like inductors, capacitors, and other types of devices. They're intended to remove high frequency junk that might be on your AC line. Regretfully, there is no standard when reporting this quantitatively. Some companies specify it as dB (50 db FWIW is about 99.7% reduction) or as a percentage. Some further tell you over what frequency range they're talking about. Some only tell you at one particular frequency. Monster, as far as I know, doesn't say much about it other than they have it. Panamax is bit better. You'll find devices that are also sold for computer applications to be quite a bit more forthcoming and generally one or two emails gets you some fairly detailed information if that's what you're looking for.

Now this emi/rfi filtering can be achieved in a number of ways. It can come right after the power cord or it can exist between pairs of outlets. The reason for the latter configuration is to address the concerns of people who are worried about Electronic Component #1 dumping some rfi back down thepower cord. In the latter scenario, the further away you are from any one component, the greater the emi/rfi filtering is. It's cumulative if you will. Hence if one's got a device with that incorporates some high frequency switching like an SACD player, then you'd put that on the first pair of outlets after the power cord and stick your TV on the furthest one. Make sense?

Price is no indicator of effectiveness here. Numbers are. One can spend hundreds for a 1250 joule unit and $30 for a 3000 joule one. Which one do you think has a better chance of protecting your equipment over the long run? On the other hand, which accountant do you think is smiling more?

Protected Equipment Warranties are useless in my opinion. If you don't have renter's insurance you ought to get it and make sure it includes provisions for Full Equipment Replacement in the event of surge damage (theft, accident, water, etc. too) instead of this prorated stuff. With a good policy, if a surge trashes your stuff, you'll be back here laughing and talking about how you need to upgrade and be asking for suggestions.

The more expensive Monster and Panamax units provide features which you may or may not find useful. Some have been touched upon by other posts in this thread. Appearance, large # of outlets, triggers, switched and unswitched outlets, delay turn ons, etc. may or may not have importance to you. If they are, then be prepared to pay accordingly for your needs...errrr...wants...errrr...you know

Now comes the question. Why do some people observe an improvement in their display when using such a device and other don't? First of all, I don't think it has to do with large voltage swings. If that was happening, then you'd notice it with your lights and unless those are dimming and/or running bright, then you can say with reasonable assurance, that your power is fairly constant. So we scratch that.
What about RFI/EMI on the lines? That's "possible" but you'd have to have extraordinarily large amounts that simply overwhelmed your power supply. Fairly unlikely but seeing as how virtually any device you buy is going to have such protection then one can reasonably expect that to be dealt with fairly effectively by anything you buy.
The most likely reason, in my opinion, is that by running everything through one device, you largely address the problems with ground loops. Sometimes these ground loops are severe enough that even running them through one device still doesn't deal with things like hum coming out of yoursubwoofer or speakers. In those cases, Calrad sells a video isolation transformer that renders that a non issue. As a side benefit it also cleans up the video.

I don't have any specific recommendations for products. If you need the additional features then look at the Panamax or Monster units. I happen to lean towards Panamax but that's mostly because I think they're more forthcoming with specs. Monster just confuses everything and trying to get information by email or phone is like trying to score with a girl while her father sits with a shotgun looking at you. It just ain't going to happen.

If you don't need those capabilities, then a host of products are out there. For around $20 the Stratitec looks good. Doesn't have the in-between-outlet emi/rfi but the rest of the specs look good. Trip Lites Isobar series is very nice. Priced in the vicinity of $60, you get in-between-outlet emi/rfi, decent joules, and a very nice feature called sine wave tracking. This limits the let through voltage by constantly tracking the AC waveform. For a unit based on SAD's, the DPS series from Transtector is nice. Quicker response time than MOV's and quite excellent at catching little baby transients...call them spikes. That's around $100 straight from the manufacturer which happens to be a sister company to Polyphaser, probably the industry yardstick when it comes to serious protection from lightning.

Things you can do if you're renting would be to check your outlets with an outlet tester (around $4 at Home Depot) to make sure you're wired correctly. Also, if you have access to the breakers, kill them in the room where your HT is, remove the outlet, pull the wires out, clean them, and wrap them around the screws instead of stabbing them through those little holes. It's a better, more robust connection. Then also add the Calrad unit which is around $10. That, to me, will give you the greatest bang for the buck and save you some cash at the same time.]]

[Dave Garrett]

This is focused on low-priced surge protectors, but their comments regarding surge protection and higher-end HT line conditioners are worth reading, as are the comments after the article itself:

http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-surge-protector/

We used to have a lot of problems with power quality at our house - computers randomly rebooting multiple times every day, the TV shutting off by itself, and so on. I had the electric utility company out multiple times, and every time they'd check everything out from the pole down to the breaker box, but never seemed to be able to find anything obviously amiss. A couple of years ago, the power went out, and soon enough a crew was up on the pole in my neighbor's backyard checking out the transformer. I went out to talk to them, and when I mentioned the chronic power problems, the crew lead said the transformer up on the pole was likely at the end of its service life, and he was going to submit an internal service request to recommend its replacement with a new one. A couple of days later, several different work crews showed up, and within two hours they'd swapped out the old unit for a new one. The previous problems haven't recurred since then. Our house is almost 70 years old, and I'd guess the transformer was at least 35-40 years old, so as always, YMMV.

[mjzee]

Thanks for all the input. I'm going with the Tripp Lite Isobar 8 Ultra.

[Scott Dolan]

Nice looking unit. What's the connected equipment warranty with it?

[Stefan Wood]

I bought several of these for the house. Works great for all my electronics.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00564YE70/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[jazzbo]

Congrats!

[A Lark Ascending]

Whenever I see this thread title I expect:

[Scott Dolan]

I bought several of these for the house. Works great for all my electronics.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00564YE70/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Power outlets usually do.

[Chuck Nessa]

Whenever I see this thread title I expect:

It works just as well.

[Stefan Wood]

I bought several of these for the house. Works great for all my electronics.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00564YE70/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Power outlets usually do.

[mr jazz]

The outlets I bought a few years ago were hospital rated-Acme. I'm not sure If there's a difference between this and industrial but the dealer who sold them to me said it was probably the best bang for your buck audiophile wise.

[Scott Dolan]

The outlets I bought a few years ago were hospital rated-Acme. I'm not sure If there's a difference between this and industrial but the dealer who sold them to me said it was probably the best bang for your buck audiophile wise.

I'm sure he did.

Hate to break the news to everyone, but "hospital grade" power outlets won't change the sound or performance of your system one iota. Hospital grade outlets are simply designed to be more durable and create a tighter and more secure connection so that a potentially life saving device doesn't come unplugged due to a loose connection. It's a building code spec.

It does not change the power supply at all. It does not improve the power at all. Nor does it have any bearing on the performance of anything plugged into it.

So, unless you have old or cracked outlets, or loose connections where your device plug either arcs, or falls out of the socket by itself, you are spending $20+ on outlets that are going to do nothing more for you than $2 outlets from your local hardware will.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Scott Dolan

[mjzee]

Amazing all the snarky, defensive comments one finds here. For the record, I currently have my stereo equipment plugged into two Ikea powerstrips (there are too many devices to plug into one). The Tripp Lite Isobar I'm buying will replace both of those, reducing the clutter behind the stereo. In addition, it should afford better protection in the event of power surges, and may, just may, help my system to sound a little better. So what's so bad about all of that?

[Scott Dolan]

Amazing all the snarky, defensive comments one finds here. For the record, I currently have my stereo equipment plugged into two Ikea powerstrips (there are too many devices to plug into one). The Tripp Lite Isobar I'm buying will replace both of those, reducing the clutter behind the stereo. In addition, it should afford better protection in the event of power surges, and may, just may, help my system to sound a little better. So what's so bad about all of that?

There's nothing wrong with using a quality surge protector.

I use a Monster HTS1600 Power Center.

It's always an EXTREMELY good idea to have surge protection for your expensive electronics. Especially those that come with a healthy equipped connections warranty.

Who made snarky and defensive comments?

I tried to clarify why hospital grade outlets will do nothing for the performance of ones system, because they won't. Nor does my power center, nor will your surge protectors. What surge protectors will do is protect your equipment if a critical surge is detected (outside of direct lightning strike). And if they have a solid equipped connections warranty, they'll replace your electronics if they fail.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Scott Dolan

[Stefan Wood]

The outlets I bought a few years ago were hospital rated-Acme. I'm not sure If there's a difference between this and industrial but the dealer who sold them to me said it was probably the best bang for your buck audiophile wise.

I'm sure he did.

Hate to break the news to everyone, but "hospital grade" power outlets won't change the sound or performance of your system one iota. Hospital grade outlets are simply designed to be more durable and create a tighter and more secure connection so that a potentially life saving device doesn't come unplugged due to a loose connection. It's a building code spec.

It does not change the power supply at all. It does not improve the power at all. Nor does it have any bearing on the performance of anything plugged into it.

So, unless you have old or cracked outlets, or loose connections where your device plug either arcs, or falls out of the socket by itself, you are spending $20+ on outlets that are going to do nothing more for you than $2 outlets from your local hardware will.

I'm going to surprise you, Scott. This is the one bit of snake oil that I buy into. A $20 Hubbell sounds a LOT better than a $2 hardware outlet. I've heard the difference in my own home. The reason may simply be better parts construction -- the Hubbell is heavier than the construction grade outlet, and has the same screw connections for the wires to ensure tightness. The Hubbell apparently is used by other companies who cryo treat it and sell it for $60 - $100+. The difference is a stronger soundstage -- not wider. That's it.

I'm going to look into the Tripp Lite Isobar, and see how their warranty works.

[mjzee]

We had a bad electrical storm last night, and my neighborhood blacked out for about a minute. The Isobar sailed through it just fine.

[Scott Dolan]

Nice! I have zero experience with Tripp, but from what everyone has said here they sound bulletproof.

Stefan, that outlet delivers the same 120 volts to your equipment that a two dollar outlet would. There is no magical transformation, and if you speak to any electrician they will tell you that those higher grade outlets are built ONLY due to commercial building code, and for many of the reasons I mentioned before. Unless your outlet is in an area where it could suffer high levels of abuse, or if your system is on a rolling platform that you regularly move, 120 volts is 120 volts. It's either on, or it isn't. There are no magical transformations taking place.

Now, if you live in a home where you are experiencing spikes or dropouts, than a surge protector and/power conditioner may make a difference in consistency. But the outlet itself only delivers the power that is fed into it.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

My audio memory is short - maybe 30 seconds or so. According to many studies, everyone else's audio memory is just as short. What these studies show is that not many people can differentiate slight changes in audio if it takes longer than 30 seconds to compare the two. My audio memory is great for swapping CDs and comparing. It's not great for swapping power cords or speaker wires or interconnects or AC outlets and comparing sounds heard minutes or hours apart unless those differences are huge.

Now, I'll grant that some people's audio memory may be exceptional. But for the audio experiment ware are talking about here (swapping your electrical outlet), I would think that the differences in audio would be very slight and I have a lot of trouble believing that anyone can hear such minute differences in the time it takes to make the swap.

[Scott Dolan]

My audio memory is short - maybe 30 seconds or so. According to many studies, everyone else's audio memory is just as short. What these studies show is that not many people can differentiate slight changes in audio if it takes longer than 30 seconds to compare the two. My audio memory is great for swapping CDs and comparing. It's not great for swapping power cords or speaker wires or interconnects or AC outlets and comparing sounds heard minutes or hours apart unless those differences are huge.

Now, I'll grant that some people's audio memory may be exceptional. But for the audio experiment ware are talking about here (swapping your electrical outlet), I would think that the differences in audio would be very slight and I have a lot of trouble believing that anyone can hear such minute differences in the time it takes to make the swap.

http://www.human-memory.net/types_sensory.html

Most sensory memory is very short-lived.

[Stefan Wood]

My audio memory is short - maybe 30 seconds or so. According to many studies, everyone else's audio memory is just as short. What these studies show is that not many people can differentiate slight changes in audio if it takes longer than 30 seconds to compare the two. My audio memory is great for swapping CDs and comparing. It's not great for swapping power cords or speaker wires or interconnects or AC outlets and comparing sounds heard minutes or hours apart unless those differences are huge.

Now, I'll grant that some people's audio memory may be exceptional. But for the audio experiment ware are talking about here (swapping your electrical outlet), I would think that the differences in audio would be very slight and I have a lot of trouble believing that anyone can hear such minute differences in the time it takes to make the swap.

http://www.human-memory.net/types_sensory.html

Most sensory memory is very short-lived.

I agree with what Kevin said. And I know what you mean Scott, with regards to delivering the same power. I'm not arguing that. I am arguing that there is a difference when the music is played. It's not imagined.

[Scott Dolan]

And I know what you mean Scott, with regards to delivering the same power. I'm not arguing that. I am arguing that there is a difference when the music is played. It's not imagined.

That was an interesting sequence.

"It's the same, but…different!"

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The outlets I bought a few years ago were hospital rated-Acme. I'm not sure If there's a difference between this and industrial but the dealer who sold them to me said it was probably the best bang for your buck audiophile wise.

I'm sure he did.

Hate to break the news to everyone, but "hospital grade" power outlets won't change the sound or performance of your system one iota. Hospital grade outlets are simply designed to be more durable and create a tighter and more secure connection so that a potentially life saving device doesn't come unplugged due to a loose connection. It's a building code spec.

It does not change the power supply at all. It does not improve the power at all. Nor does it have any bearing on the performance of anything plugged into it.

So, unless you have old or cracked outlets, or loose connections where your device plug either arcs, or falls out of the socket by itself, you are spending $20+ on outlets that are going to do nothing more for you than $2 outlets from your local hardware will.

I'm going to surprise you, Scott. This is the one bit of snake oil that I buy into. A $20 Hubbell sounds a LOT better than a $2 hardware outlet. I've heard the difference in my own home. The reason may simply be better parts construction -- the Hubbell is heavier than the construction grade outlet, and has the same screw connections for the wires to ensure tightness. The Hubbell apparently is used by other companies who cryo treat it and sell it for $60 - $100+. The difference is a stronger soundstage -- not wider. That's it.

I'm going to look into the Tripp Lite Isobar, and see how their warranty works.

I have a Tripp Lite Isobar that I'm not using. Maybe I can give you a good deal on it?