Nik Bärtsch's Ronin

[Jim Alfredson]

There has been a little bit of discussion about these guys on the forum, but not much. I'm becoming a fan. I have yet to pick up any of the ECM releases; I plan to do that soon. But I'm really enjoying the videos on YouTube, like this one:

I really like what these guys are doing; rhythmically intricate, fresh, almost trance-like minimalist music with jazz undertones and timbres.

Which recordings are the best so far?

[ejp626]

I think there are 3 Ronin CDs on ECM. I prefer the 1st and the 3rd, but all are pretty interesting.

[Chicago Expat]

"Holon" is my favorite. I thought "Stoa" was good, also, and I'm struggling to remember what differentiated it in my mind from "Holon". My only guess is that "Holon" was my first Bartch album, so it made the lasting impression. I haven't yet heard "Llyria", and due to ECM's general stinginess with allowing people to listen to their albums before purchasing, it's likely I won't be picking it up any time soon. There is, however, a video of one track floating around, both on their myspace page and on youtube.

I do enjoy the torrential rain fervor of his sound. There's a blizzard-like quality, elemental I guess, to the effect it provokes (in me, at least). I would love to hear them live in person.

I picked up "Holon" with my old BMG account, so that should tell you that there's lots of cheap copies out there. For those of you still clinging to a YourMusic account, it's on there still, I believe.

For those of you who can't get enough of that sound, Bartsch did put out a solo album years ago built on the same sound pervasive in his Ronin ensemble. Here's the samples on emusic...

http://www.emusic.com/album/Nik-B%C3%A4rtsch-Hishiryo-Piano-Solo-MP3-Download/11421277.html

Edited February 28, 2011 by Chicago Expat

[CJ Shearn]

"Holon" is great but I traded it in b/c I wasn't listening to it enough, I sort of have to be in a mood for minimalist stuff.

[GA Russell]

I like Holon and Stoa very much. In fact, I listened to Stoa just the other day. The new one I haven't heard yet.

[mjazzg]

All three are very good. There's an argument that says that they are progressively less 'angular' and that the rhythmic becomes less dominant over the melodic. - something I can hear but the 'development' or change does not remove them far from the overall, defining aesthetic. Maybe it's more that the contribution's of Stoa (reeds) become more prominent?

Don't dismiss the many albums also available on Bartsch's own label, here http://www.nikbaertsch.com/shop/

the solo keyborad release, HISHIRYO, mentioned by Chicago Expat provide's a fascinating insight into Bartsch's playing.

I've seen them live 3 times and the precision and clarity of this music is even more impressive in person - a very exciting band

[JSngry]

How do these guys compare (in general "stylistic" terms) with Portico Quartet?

[Chicago Expat]

How do these guys compare (in general "stylistic" terms) with Portico Quartet?

That's an interesting question. I had never thought to compare those two before, but now that you've said it, it makes some sense. In general stylistic terms, I think Portico has more of a meandering sound, at least comparatively to Ronin's driving pedal-to-the-floor rhythms. Y'know, I'm struggling with an answer here. Let me think about it for a bit. But I will mention that I've never bundled those two bands before in terms of, like, hey, I'm in the kind of mood to listen to a Ronin kind of sound... I can't imagine substituting Portico for them, y'know?

Hey, here's one... Nik's Ronin is more tethered to the modern-day ECM sound, whereas Portico Quartet reminds me more of old-school ECM, like an Eberhard Weber album like "Endless Days".

But it's a good question and deserves some thought.

Cheers.

[JSngry]

I've just discovered Portico (thru my son), and I'm liking them very much, not least because I hear a strong influence of Miroslav Vitous-era Weather Report in there, which in turn links to the older ECM sound. But there also that strong minimalist thing informing them too.

Haven't really looked at Ronin yet, but I'm game.

[Chicago Expat]

I've just discovered Portico (thru my son), and I'm liking them very much, not least because I hear a strong influence of Miroslav Vitous-era Weather Report in there, which in turn links to the older ECM sound. But there also that strong minimalist thing informing them too.

Haven't really looked at Ronin yet, but I'm game.

And that hang drum is too cool.

Here's some Ronin videos from the album...

From Holon... Holon on youtube

Another Holon

Another Holon

Another Holon

From Lyria... Lyria on youtube

Another Lyria youtube

Hm, don't appear to be any from Stoa.

I'm pretty sure I didn't dupe any of the songs.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Chicago Expat

[A Lark Ascending]

When I saw Nik Bärtsch's Ronin about 18 months ago they made little impression. But I've since listened to the discs and they've really eaten their way into me.

Saw Portico at the same festival and wasn't impressed at all. Didn't seem to be alot going on (a bit of minimalism, bit of generic world percussion, bit of Garbarek on sax). They got a Mercury Prize nomination around that time and it got their records into the shops and a fair bit of attention from younger music fans (from outside of jazz). The concert I saw was packed. But half the audience did not stick around for the much more impressive Bojan Z quartet.

[mjazzg]

Saw Portico at the same festival and wasn't impressed at all. Didn't seem to be alot going on (a bit of minimalism, bit of generic world percussion, bit of Garbarek on sax). They got a Mercury Prize nomination around that time and it got their records into the shops and a fair bit of attention from younger music fans (from outside of jazz). The concert I saw was packed. But half the audience did not stick around for the much more impressive Bojan Z quartet.

Know what you mean about Portico live. saw them last month (supporting the marvellous Penguin Cafe) and they just sounded insipid to me. Yes, the hang drum sounds interesting but not enough to compensate for some fairly ordinary playing from the others. They've certainly listened to a lot of early Garbarek/ECM (a good thing in my book) but overall the pieces meandered and there seemed a lack of a vital spark. to ignite proceedings. I thought that Isla was listenable but again, too polite and insubstantial - maybe they'll grow into their sound, I hope so.

Hadn't thought of them at all in the same breath as Ronin before this thread. I hear a similarity only in that both seem to have some superficial connection to Steve Reich - both in a different way, but that minimalism influence that others have mentioned above. Ronin's compositions and use of rhythm seem so much more advanced than Portico and therefore, to me, more interesting.

[Chicago Expat]

When I saw Nik Bärtsch's Ronin about 18 months ago they made little impression. But I've since listened to the discs and they've really eaten their way into me.

Saw Portico at the same festival and wasn't impressed at all. Didn't seem to be alot going on (a bit of minimalism, bit of generic world percussion, bit of Garbarek on sax). They got a Mercury Prize nomination around that time and it got their records into the shops and a fair bit of attention from younger music fans (from outside of jazz). The concert I saw was packed. But half the audience did not stick around for the much more impressive Bojan Z quartet.

Your impression of Portico isn't an unusual one it would seem. I don't know if they're simply a victim of the high expectations that come with early hype or if they're just not that good live. I haven't seen them live. I own "Knee Deep" and have listened to "Isla" all the way through (Lala, RIP) with the intention of picking it up on my emusic account eventually. I enjoy both. One thing I've experienced is that I've been evangelized to about them and so got really pumped up to hear them, and then did feel a bit let down when I first heard "Knee Deep". The thing is, when someone else gets me all pumped up about an album, if the music itself doesn't have the emotional bombast of some Rush-like stadium rock album, I almost have an emotional reproach toward the music. It isn't until I'm able to step away from the external excitement/hype about the music and approach it more objectively/dispassionately that I get a more honest listen to the music.

Portico ain't a great band, but they have an enviably languid sound, and I'm glad to have one (and eventually two) of their albums on my shelf. Are they deserving of all their hype? Maybe not, but if it was that hype that allowed word of their music to reach my ears, then I'm grateful for it. But that's just what I think. I'm making a lot of assumptions about a lot of stuff up there.

Know what you mean about Portico live. saw them last month (supporting the marvellous Penguin Cafe) and they just sounded insipid to me. Yes, the hang drum sounds interesting but not enough to compensate for some fairly ordinary playing from the others. They've certainly listened to a lot of early Garbarek/ECM (a good thing in my book) but overall the pieces meandered and there seemed a lack of a vital spark. to ignite proceedings. I thought that Isla was listenable but again, too polite and insubstantial - maybe they'll grow into their sound, I hope so.

Hadn't thought of them at all in the same breath as Ronin before this thread. I hear a similarity only in that both seem to have some superficial connection to Steve Reich - both in a different way, but that minimalism influence that others have mentioned above. Ronin's compositions and use of rhythm seem so much more advanced than Portico and therefore, to me, more interesting.

I agree that Ronin's compositions are more advanced than Portico's... big time. Even though there's less layering of sounds as compared to Portico, there does seem like there's much more going on, like how one can sense activity behind a thick wall of fog.

How was Penguin Cafe? I only discovered them about a year and a half ago and really liked the cd I bought ("Signs of Life"). I can imagine that a live show would be pretty special.

[mjazzg]

Penguin Cafe (no Orchestra anymore) were very fine indeed.

It's now a band run by Arthur Jeffes (Simon's son) and features old tune of his fathers and new material that Arthur's written specifically for this line up. First impressions are that the musical gene has passed intact from one generation to the other.

I'm always impressed when bands are made up of musicians who appear to seamlessly swap between different instruments. Penguin Cafe are a ten piece but must have played at least twenty instruments between them.

I was lucky enough to see the origianl PC Orchestra line up reform a couple of years ago and the recent concert was just as good (probably heresy to my partner who's the original fan between us). Very energetic and very, very musical. Even the old classics that have been played to death on adverts sounded vital.

if "Signs of Life" is doing it for you then your fairly safe with any others. The latest line-up have a new release which I've not heard yet but will soon

[Chicago Expat]

Thanks for that post. There's a whole lot of bio on the ensemble that I wasn't aware of until just now.

I'm gonna have to commit to picking up more of their stuff. I had meant to when I first got "Signs of Life", but, well, it's pretty easy to get sidetracked when the next new discovery comes along and then the next one and so on.

[JSngry]

I've just heard on Portico record (Isla) & liked it well enough. Didn't realize they sucked so hard. My bad.

Then again, I like Stacey Kent well enough too.

Maybe this whole "British music" just...eludes me somehow. Oh well!

[Chicago Expat]

I've just heard on Portico record (Isla) & liked it well enough. Didn't realize they sucked so hard. My bad.

Then again, I like Stacey Kent well enough too.

Maybe this whole "British music" just...eludes me somehow. Oh well!

If you liked "Isla", you should pick up "Knee Deep", too. I enjoyed Knee Deep more. There's a bunch of youtube videos to preview the album. Here's one song which links to others...

Portico "Knee Deep" on youtube

I don't want to hijack the Ronin thread, but all this talk of Portico and now Penguin makes me want to bring up the band Klabbes Bank. They have a sound similar to Portico's (minus the hang drum), but with more advanced melodies. I'm a really big fan of theirs, having discovered them on emusic not long ago. Here's their myspace where you can hear some of their stuff...

Klabbes Bank myspace

Their album "Je Suis la Mer" is my favorite. I also have Kalsater and really like that one, too. I haven't yet picked up their first album, but I'll be arranging for that to happen when my finances take a turn for the better.

Again, my apologies to the OP for the detours. I can create a different thread if anyone objects.

Cheers.

[JSngry]

I actually enjoyed the simplicity of Portico. As long as everything resonates & balances within itself (whatever that means...), I tend to like most anything.

Now as for what creates "staying power", that's a whole 'nother thing.... but ear candy (and that's how Portico struck me, as ear candy) is something I seldom feel negatively about, unless it's really badly botched.

[A Lark Ascending]

I've just heard on Portico record (Isla) & liked it well enough. Didn't realize they sucked so hard. My bad.

Then again, I like Stacey Kent well enough too.

Maybe this whole "British music" just...eludes me somehow. Oh well!

I love Stacey! I know it had me evicted from the Kool Kat Klub many years ago.

I think my reaction to Portico might be over-reaction - so much fine UK jazz goes unnoticed in its own land. And then along comes this rather ordinary band who get just a bit of a spin behind them and they are everyone who never really thinks about jazz's idea of a great jazz band. It sounds like Starbuck's music to me - and there's nothing wrong with Starbucks music, it just doesn't need grand claims made about it.

But then we've seen this happen again and again...

[Chicago Expat]

I love Stacey! I know it had me evicted from the Kool Kat Klub many years ago.

I think my reaction to Portico might be over-reaction - so much fine UK jazz goes unnoticed in its own land. And then along comes this rather ordinary band who get just a bit of a spin behind them and they are everyone who never really thinks about jazz's idea of a great jazz band. It sounds like Starbuck's music to me - and there's nothing wrong with Starbucks music, it just doesn't need grand claims made about it.

But then we've seen this happen again and again...

I think I understand what you mean by Starbucks music. For me, with Portico, there's a time and a place for it. That kind of designation kind've indicated, in my book, that it's not great music, since great music, well, it works with most times and most places. But I appreciate my bench players, too, albums that only fit certain moods or moments but which I can rely upon to do their thing, regardless of historical scope and talent-hype ratios, and make a part of my day that much more enjoyable.

Portico is definitely a bench player for me.

(Sorry, my analogies were all over the place there)

[JSngry]

Here's the thing - I don't get the sense that any of them (Portico) are really "great players" on their own. But they play well together & make coherent group music with . It's certainly not all there is to be gotten out of music, but it's nothing to run away from, either.

I had no idea that there was any kind of "hype" behind them in the UK. My son found them (apparently quite randomly), really dug it, and thought that I might as well. So what I heard and reacted to was a true "cold listening".

But if this stuff is getting really "popular", hey, that's not a bad thing. It's another color on the usually-more-or-less-monochromatic popular palate, and as a fan of palates in general, it's kinda hard for me to get upset about that.

...since great music, well, it works with most times and most places...

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure that it applies as generally as you might think at first....

[Chicago Expat]

Here's the thing - I don't get the sense that any of them (Portico) are really "great players" on their own. But they play well together & make coherent group music with . It's certainly not all there is to be gotten out of music, but it's nothing to run away from, either.

I had no idea that there was any kind of "hype" behind them in the UK. My son found them (apparently quite randomly), really dug it, and thought that I might as well. So what I heard and reacted to was a true "cold listening".

But if this stuff is getting really "popular", hey, that's not a bad thing. It's another color on the usually-more-or-less-monochromatic popular palate, and as a fan of palates in general, it's kinda hard for me to get upset about that.

...since great music, well, it works with most times and most places...

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure that it applies as generally as you might think at first....

You mean like an adaption period? Yeah, I agree with that. Most great albums (and I should add, I've been talking about great to me, not in the historical sense) don't always start as anytime-anytime, but they become that pretty quickly. But again, I was a bit lazy with my earlier post, I was only using the word great as synonymous with favorite and only from my point of view, not anybody else's.

And I can't tell from your post if you interpreted my post accurately. I wasn't referring to Portico as great individually or as a unit. I was slotting them in my personal ranking system as a band who there's a time and a place for.

[king ubu]

If you want Isla, I suggest this one:

[Chicago Expat]

If you want Isla, I suggest this one:

Does Mal play hang drum on that one? (Not really sure of the purpose of this smiley)

[king ubu]

Nah... but I prefer minimalism of the "dirty" kind as it can be heard with Mal Waldron.

Baertsch played (still does, I think) a weekly rehearsal/workshop/gig here, but I never made it there... his clinically clean sound world turns me off.

Portico I didn't care for, from the few bits I've heard so far.

I do get the "ideas" behind, but they're of little appeal to me. Add me to the ascending lark's camp regarding the frustration about much more interesting musician falling wayside because its lack of a similarly sexy hook.

And with that, I'm out of this thread already, don't worry!