Pre-war vs. post-war Lester Young.

[sonnymax]

I was reading through the Penguin Guide To Jazz...

What book are you reading from? I haven't seen 2010's The Penguin Jazz Guide: The History of the Music in the 1001 Best Albums, but I do have every edition of The Penguin Guide To Jazz Recordings. I can't find the quote you cited in the ninth edition, although it does state: Opinion still rages about this period in Lester's career. Some maintain he was a broken reed; others insist that like Billie Holiday's his expression moved onto a new plane. We're inclined to the former view, even though flashes of the old genius do shine through.

Each of Lester's post-war recordings receive a respectable 3 to 3 1/2 star rating. Although Prez's physical and mental issues are mentioned, the authors caution the reader about making assumptions about their possible impact on his playing. Regarding his solo on the song "Slow Motion Blues", they say: It would be tempting to play it as evidence of the saxophonist's mental decline except that there is a sardonic humour to its long line which suggests that something else is in play.

They also offer this "advice": Not every fractured performance is a sign of incipient breakdown. Nor does a smooth legato point to mental health.

I have enjoyed, although not necessarily agreed with, the writings of Richard Cook and Brian Morton for many years. Along with Max Harrison, they are among the few critics to whom I have turned when I want an informed, but certainly not definitive, perspective on some music that I'm interested in. I think their views on post-war Prez as presented in this thread have been exaggerated and are therefore misleading. That's just my opinion.

[mikelz777]

The views I presented from the Penguin Guide were not exaggerations. They were directly quoted from the 7th edition. It's interesting to contrast the Penguin vs. All Music Guide reviews for the same album: (The President Plays With The Oscar Peterson Trio)

Penguin - "Flawlessly lyrical piano-playing, but nothing much from Pres but the shards and fragments of a musical mind that had very little left to say. Some of the tunes are stunning. 'Tea For Two' is a revelation and 'On The Sunny Side Of The Street' is as fresh and uncomplicated as a spring morning. Much of the rest, though, is as empty as after-dinner conversation between generations who aren't at odds but who don't quite understand each other."

AMG - "Defying what has become conventional wisdom, tenor saxophonist Lester Young (when he was reasonably healthy) actually cut some of his greatest recordings in the 1950s. On this wonderful effort with pianist Oscar Peterson, guitarist Barney Kessel, bassist Ray Brown, and drummer J.C. Heard, Prez performs definitive versions of "Just You, Just Me" and "Tea for Two," and plays a string of concise but memorable ballad renditions: "On the Sunny Side of the Street," "Almost Like Being in Love," "I Can't Give You Anything but Love," "There Will Never Be Another You," and "I'm Confessin'." The 1997 CD reissue augments the original dozen songs with a version of the good-humored "It Takes Two to Tango" (which features Young's only recorded vocals) and has a rather unnecessary false start ("I Can't Get Started"), along with some studio chatter. Essential music."

Edited February 27, 2011 by mikelz777

[Peter Friedman]

I have been listening to the fairly recently released 2 CD set on Storyville titled:

Lester Young - 100 Years - Forever Young

This has a wide variety of live dates from the period May 1951 through December 1956.

He plays with many different rhythm sections and 3 different trumpet players.

There are many very fine tracks over this 2 CD set that indicates, at least to me, that

Pres was capable of some wonderful playing during these post-war years

[John L]

The views I presented from the Penguin Guide were not exaggerations. They were directly quoted from the 7th edition. It's interesting to contrast the Penguin vs. All Music Guide reviews for the same album: (The President Plays With The Oscar Peterson Trio)

Penguin - "Flawlessly lyrical piano-playing, but nothing much from Pres but the shards and fragments of a musical mind that had very little left to say. Some of the tunes are stunning. 'Tea For Two' is a revelation and 'On The Sunny Side Of The Street' is as fresh and uncomplicated as a spring morning. Much of the rest, though, is as empty as after-dinner conversation between generations who aren't at odds but who don't quite understand each other."

AMG - "Defying what has become conventional wisdom, tenor saxophonist Lester Young (when he was reasonably healthy) actually cut some of his greatest recordings in the 1950s. On this wonderful effort with pianist Oscar Peterson, guitarist Barney Kessel, bassist Ray Brown, and drummer J.C. Heard, Prez performs definitive versions of "Just You, Just Me" and "Tea for Two," and plays a string of concise but memorable ballad renditions: "On the Sunny Side of the Street," "Almost Like Being in Love," "I Can't Give You Anything but Love," "There Will Never Be Another You," and "I'm Confessin'." The 1997 CD reissue augments the original dozen songs with a version of the good-humored "It Takes Two to Tango" (which features Young's only recorded vocals) and has a rather unnecessary false start ("I Can't Get Started"), along with some studio chatter. Essential music."

AMG may be closer to the truth here, but the citing of this version of Just You, Just Me as "definitive" makes me wonder if this reviewer has ever heard the classic version Pres cut for Keynote.

[Chuck Nessa]

Pres was amazing all the time before the war. The frequency of "amazing" diminished thru the years, but the rewards are worth the exploration. Exploration - that's the ticket.

Bad Pres is worth having.

[sonnymax]

The views I presented from the Penguin Guide were not exaggerations. They were directly quoted from the 7th edition.

I didn't mean to imply that the quote you cited was fabricated. I do, however, disagree with your conclusion that Cook and Morton dismiss all of post-war Prez as "a pale shadow" of his former brilliance. They certainly have some critical things to say about the particular album you mentioned, The President Plays, and yet it still receives a healthy 3 1/2-star rating. That's only one recording, however, and I think they do an admirable job of describing several of the records he made at that time and in the years to come. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I can't help but think that your over-generalization about Cook and Morton is tantamount to what you're accusing them of doing to Prez.

[mikelz777]

The views I presented from the Penguin Guide were not exaggerations. They were directly quoted from the 7th edition.

I didn't mean to imply that the quote you cited was fabricated. I do, however, disagree with your conclusion that Cook and Morton dismiss all of post-war Prez as "a pale shadow" of his former brilliance. They certainly have some critical things to say about the particular album you mentioned, The President Plays, and yet it still receives a healthy 3 1/2-star rating. That's only one recording, however, and I think they do an admirable job of describing several of the records he made at that time and in the years to come. You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but I can't help but think that your over-generalization about Cook and Morton is tantamount to what you're accusing them of doing to Prez.

I didn't conclude anything regarding Cook and Morton. I merely reported what they said; that in their bio of Young, they said that his late recordings had their admirers but that they were a pale shadow of the pre-war Young. It's not my opinion and I'm not generalizing, it's what they said. If anyone is guilty of generalizing, it would be them. Perhaps they should better reconcile what they say with what they rate the recordings.

Edited February 28, 2011 by mikelz777

[sonnymax]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As they say, "that's what makes for horse racing."

[J.A.W.]

Perhaps they should better reconcile what they say with what they rate the recordings.

Well, that won't happen, there's no "they" anymore, Cook died in 2007.

[John L]

I bought a Penguin Guide to Recorded jazz back in the 90s, and I recall it being quite negative about post-war Lester Young. They have the right to their opinion, which is shared by some others. And I had the right never to buy another Penguin Guide again.

[David Ayers]

Pres even at his worst could make very profound statements.

Indeed. Thae aforementioned Laughing To Keep From Crying date springs to mind...Too often "profundity" is assumed to carry with it some kind of "symbolic" quality, some detachment between purveyor and recipient that allow the "weight" of the statement some room to float, lest it crush the recipient under its own weight. But Prez was not that type of man - he gave you what he had, how he had it, and on that fate, he was not in a good place physically, and maybe not mentally. Not being there, I don't know. Plus he had a clarinet sprung on him. But instead of looking for a generic "safe" place to play from, the man simply put it out there like it was - difficulty is breathing, in fingering, you name it, it was all there, and yet....there's a definite-ness to it all, and an authoritative overall design to those troubling statements that says, yeah, this is it. This is exactly how and where I am right now. Any questions? Didn't think so.

Not just anybody can be that honest under those circumstances, ya' know?

Alright. I haven't said it for ten years. But now something finally snapped. Jim, please stop putting scare quotes round your key terms. It's terrible style! Trust me, I'm a pro.

Got that off my chest.

As General MacArthur said, 'I'll be back.' Oscar, eat your heart out.

[JSngry]

Very "wry", there, "David"!

[Big Beat Steve]

... but the citing of this version of Just You, Just Me as "definitive" makes me wonder if this reviewer has ever heard the classic version Pres cut for Keynote.

Indeed!!!!

Bad Pres is worth having.

EVEN Bad Pres is worth having, you mean?

[David Ayers]

Very "wry", there, "David"!

Oh "come on"!

[JSngry]

OK"!"

[mikeweil]

I like all them seven!