Pre-war vs. post-war Lester Young.

[mikelz777]

I was reading through the Penguin Guide To Jazz when I came to their review of "The President Plays With The Oscar Peterson Trio". Their review is as follows:

"Flawlessly lyrical piano-playing, but nothing much from Pres but the shards and fragments of a musical mind that had very little left to say. Some of the tunes are stunning. 'Tea For Two' is a revelation and 'On The Sunny Side Of The Street' is as fresh and uncomplicated as a spring morning. Much of the rest, though, is as empty as after-dinner conversation between generations who aren't at odds but who don't quite understand each other."

In their bio of Young, they say that his late recordings have their admirers but that they are a pale shadow of the pre-war Young. I can't say that I agree with their withering point of view on Prez's post-war playing. I've heard this debate before but I can't say that I understand it. Are they just comparing Prez to himself or are they also comparing him to other players in the diverging sounds of jazz of those times? I'm not knowledgeable enough to critique or break down the technical aspects of a musician but I know what I enjoy listening to and I very much enjoy Prez's playing both pre- and post-war. I might have better understood the review above had it been applied to his release, "Laughin' To Keep From Cryin'". (6 years later) Some of the playing on there was pretty rough. What are your thoughts?

Edited February 23, 2011 by mikelz777

[jlhoots]

I like both.

Depends on my mood.

[JSngry]

...nothing much from Pres but the shards and fragments of a musical mind that had very little left to say.

Whoever wrote that is an unqualified, incompetent, soulless, and fully denatured fragment of a human being who maybe has a shard something to say, but absolutely nothing to tell.

Ordinarily I'd add "just my opinion", but not this time.

[king ubu]

My opinion is that there's still plenty of amazing, heart-wrecking post-war music from from Pres... and that "Laughing to Keep from Crying" (including the cover shot) is as poignant an album title as was ever found.

[jazztrain]

What a ridiculous load of crap (the original statement that's quoted, not JSngry's response). If something gets repeated enough times (and this opinion shows up again and again), people start to believe it.

There are some stunningly beautiful Prez sessions from the post-war period. Very little left to say? Please!

Maybe we should start a thread of ridiculous statements of this sort, like the ones that dismiss Stan Getz as a mere imitator of Prez. Don't people actually listen?

...nothing much from Pres but the shards and fragments of a musical mind that had very little left to say.

Whoever wrote that is an unqualified, incompetent, soulless, and fully denatured fragment of a human being who maybe has a shard something to say, but absolutely nothing to tell.

Ordinarily I'd add "just my opinion", but not this time.

[king ubu]

Maybe we should start a thread of ridiculous statements of this sort, like the ones that dismiss Stan Getz as a mere imitator of Prez. Don't people actually listen?

No use... you could throw in 50% of amg or some...

[medjuck]

What a ridiculous load of crap (the original statement that's quoted, not JSngry's response). If something gets repeated enough times (and this opinion shows up again and again), people start to believe it.

Actually I think that the new conventional wisdom is that Post war Prez is just as good as Pre-War Prez. My own preference from listening to (I think) everything he ever recorded in a studio is for pre-war Prez. There's lot's

of great later stuff but some of it is pretty sad. The earlier work is consistently amazing. I think that this opinion is now as out of fashion as it used to be in fashion but it's never-the-less my opinion and has nothing to do with what the guy wrote (which seems almost as mean as JSngry's response.)

[JSngry]

Glad I out-meaned the original meanie...it's more than deserved, so long has/did (yes, the new conventional wisdom is that the newer is worthy of much consideration) that "pale shadow of his former self" BS float around. It was the "conventional wisdom even while the man was alive for crissakes, you think that didn't hurt Prez?

What is true is that Lester never ran out of things to say. What is also true is that as he became more ill, he had periods of weakness, along with periods of relative strength. And what is ultimately most true is that Lester was always finding new ways to say whatever it was he had to say at the time, meaning that since what he had to say in 1958 was quite different than what he had to say in 1938, so were the techniques used to tell the respective stories.

Don't people actually listen? Well, yeah, I'm sure they do. But quite often phonetically, I think...

Edited February 23, 2011 by JSngry

[flat5]

He had some great moments at the end. His "Fine and Mellow" solo is matchless. One perfect chorus no one else could have played.

He was much less consistent in his last years.

[jeffcrom]

I haven't really thought about this since I was a young man; back then I preferred the younger Prez, although I appreciated some of the later stuff. I just realized, somewhat to my surprise, that when I listen to Prez these days, I turn to the later recordings about 80% of the time. Maybe it has to do with where I am in life. The mature Prez "speaks" to me more than the youngster does.

[Matthew]

In what world is Lester Young: Jazz Giants '56 not a towering artistic achievement? Not in a world I want to live in, that's for sure...

Edited February 24, 2011 by Matthew

[brownie]

All it takes is a listen to the 'Pres and Teddy' album to get an answer. Pres music did age very well!

[John L]

Pre-war Pres could do no wrong. Post-war Pres did not always have the physical or mental strength to do that, but often made music that was just as sublime.

I think that there were various up and down times for post-war Pres. 1950 was a peak of sorts. A low point (IMO) was late 1952 through most of 1955, where he often (although not always) sounds physically weak and relatively uninspired. But he came back strong in 1956.

Pres even at his worst could make very profound statements.

[king ubu]

Pre-war Pres could do no wrong. Post-war Pres did not always have the physical or mental strength to do that, but often made music that was just as sublime.

I think that there were various up and down times for post-war Pres. 1950 was a peak of sorts. A low point (IMO) was late 1952 through most of 1955, where he often (although not always) sounds physically weak and relatively uninspired. But he came back strong in 1956.

Pres even at his worst could make very profound statements.

I agree with most of that... but some of the titles done with John Lewis in the period you mention are pretty darn good!

[Big Beat Steve]

Pre-war Pres could do no wrong. Post-war Pres did not always have the physical or mental strength to do that, but often made music that was just as sublime.

I think that there were various up and down times for post-war Pres. 1950 was a peak of sorts. A low point (IMO) was late 1952 through most of 1955, where he often (although not always) sounds physically weak and relatively uninspired. But he came back strong in 1956.

Pres even at his worst could make very profound statements.

That sums it up about as well one possibly could sum it up.

BTW, I don't know what kind of grasp on reality, i.e. on the moment the war ended, music biographers have but the Aladdin recordings look very much POST-WAR to me. And they sure ain't bad.

And as has been said before, the "Prez and Teddy" and "Jazz Giants 56" albums of course are masterpieces.

[John L]

Pre-war Pres could do no wrong. Post-war Pres did not always have the physical or mental strength to do that, but often made music that was just as sublime.

I think that there were various up and down times for post-war Pres. 1950 was a peak of sorts. A low point (IMO) was late 1952 through most of 1955, where he often (although not always) sounds physically weak and relatively uninspired. But he came back strong in 1956.

Pres even at his worst could make very profound statements.

I agree with most of that... but some of the titles done with John Lewis in the period you mention are pretty darn good!

I think that the work with John Lewis comes from 1951, a very good year for Pres, if not quite up to 1950. During 1952-1955, Pres mostly worked with Horace Silver and Gildo Mahones.

Edited February 24, 2011 by John L

[king ubu]

Yes, you may be right - sorry!

Posting from work... the dates with Mahones, Silver etc are a rough and very mixed bag indeed. But 1950 brought some amazing stuff (including those long recordings partly released on Savoy).

[JSngry]

Pres even at his worst could make very profound statements.

Indeed. Thae aforementioned Laughing To Keep From Crying date springs to mind...Too often "profundity" is assumed to carry with it some kind of "symbolic" quality, some detachment between purveyor and recipient that allow the "weight" of the statement some room to float, lest it crush the recipient under its own weight. But Prez was not that type of man - he gave you what he had, how he had it, and on that fate, he was not in a good place physically, and maybe not mentally. Not being there, I don't know. Plus he had a clarinet sprung on him. But instead of looking for a generic "safe" place to play from, the man simply put it out there like it was - difficulty is breathing, in fingering, you name it, it was all there, and yet....there's a definite-ness to it all, and an authoritative overall design to those troubling statements that says, yeah, this is it. This is exactly how and where I am right now. Any questions? Didn't think so.

Not just anybody can be that honest under those circumstances, ya' know?

[mikeweil]

Not just anybody can be that honest under those circumstances, ya' know?

[BillF]

The only Lester I have any misgivings about is from his final years when he was literally on his last legs. Lester with the pre-war Basie band is among the very finest music in jazz and I love the Aladdin sessions. He's still fine in the above-mentioned session with Peterson.

[gmonahan]

Pre-war Pres could do no wrong. Post-war Pres did not always have the physical or mental strength to do that, but often made music that was just as sublime.

I think that there were various up and down times for post-war Pres. 1950 was a peak of sorts. A low point (IMO) was late 1952 through most of 1955, where he often (although not always) sounds physically weak and relatively uninspired. But he came back strong in 1956.

Pres even at his worst could make very profound statements.

That sums it up about as well one possibly could sum it up.

BTW, I don't know what kind of grasp on reality, i.e. on the moment the war ended, music biographers have but the Aladdin recordings look very much POST-WAR to me. And they sure ain't bad.

And as has been said before, the "Prez and Teddy" and "Jazz Giants 56" albums of course are masterpieces.

I was thinking of the Aladdins too. There is some amazing stuff on those, as good as anything Prez did pre-war, I think.

gregmo

[JSngry]

FWIW (probably little, if anything...) Paul Quinichette always seemed to mirror Post-War Prez a lot more than Pre-War Prez.

[John L]

FWIW (probably little, if anything...) Paul Quinichette always seemed to mirror Post-War Prez a lot more than Pre-War Prez.

Dexter Gordon's ballad style also sounds solidly rooted in vintage 1940s Lester.

[danasgoodstuff]

Didn't Lewis Porter argument at length that if you're going to divide Lester's Work into 'periods', then there are really at least three such and that the simple pre/post division and the atrribution of the presumed decline to his unfortunate army experience are a steaming pile?

And I agree, the two albums with Teddy Wilson from '56 are all kinds of fine.

[mmilovan]

I like all them seven!

Edited February 27, 2011 by mmilovan