Are Woody Allen's Films Less Highly Regarded?

[Teasing the Korean]

When I was younger, I remember Woody Allen being discussed with the levels of reverence and enthusiasm associated with all the great directors - Fellini, Bergman, etc.

In more recent decades, when I have film conversations, it seems like he's not mentioned as much; when one of his films is mentioned, someone will say, "Yeah, that was good," etc. (The one possible exception to this may be "Crimes and Misdemeanors," which is my favorite of his films that I've seen, and likely the one he'll be remembered for). Additionally, I remember a piece in the NYT, post Soon-Yi, stating that only a small number of people showed up for one of his NY film premieres.

So: Is this my own perception, or has anyone else felt this also?

Assuming yes, do you think the Soon-Yi scandal directly or indirectly played a role?

Do you think Woody is one of those artists who speaks to a certain generation or era, but whose work ultimately lacks the kind of staying power of great art?

Edited February 12, 2011 by Teasing the Korean

[Shawn]

The generational thing could definitely play a role. Growing up he was one of those filmakers that everyone told me I was "supposed" to watch, but it wasn't until I got into my late 20's that some of his movies started to sink in. I'm still lukewarm on many of his movies. I don't deny the talent, I just don't always enjoy the movies.

Many people I talked to over the years indicated that they just didn't like Woody as a character...it's that "character" that he played in his 70's films that doesn't seem to translate that well to people my age and younger. I tend to gravitate more towards the movies that he directs and doesn't star in. The neurotic schtick was pretty funny when Woody was younger, but now it just seems like a pathetic old man bitching for the sake of bitching.

[7/4]

maybe he just makes too many films?

[king ubu]

And he made some *very* bad films in the 90s... also the one with (as others think, not me: hottie) Scarlett J. wasn't nearly as good as it was hyped up to be... (it had a different audience from the regular Allen audience is my guess).

Anyway, to me he remains a big name for sure!

[paul secor]

Woody Allen has his own style. His films engage me and don't insult my sensibilities or my intelligence. That's enough for me. I continue to watch both his older and newer films.

[bertrand]

It's the Soon-Yi thing. At least one critic openly called him a creepy pedophile.

I liked Celebrity a lot. Barcelona was OK.

Bertrand.

[J.A.W.]

Many people I talked to over the years indicated that they just didn't like Woody as a character...it's that "character" that he played in his 70's films that doesn't seem to translate that well to people my age and younger. I tend to gravitate more towards the movies that he directs and doesn't star in. The neurotic schtick was pretty funny when Woody was younger, but now it just seems like a pathetic old man bitching for the sake of bitching.

Well, I'll be 64 next week and I don't like Mr Allen as a character either, so as far as I'm concerned that's got nothing to do with age I found his neurotic shtick funny in the first three or four movies he appeared in, but from then on it bored me to death.

[Jazzmoose]

I found his neurotic shtick funny in the first three or four movies he appeared in, but from then on it bored me to death.

I agree, but then that's the way I feel about any actor who operates this way. Heck, even Jerry Lewis was funny for a picture or two..

As a director, though, I think it's true that the 'creepy pedophile' tag did hurt him greatly. After that episode, I just didn't seem to notice people discussing his movies as much as before. People can overlook a lot for art; apparently marrying your step-daughter isn't one of them.

[Stefan Wood]

Yeah, marrying Soon-Yi damaged his reputation. Plus, I think he said all he could say with his films up and including Crimes and Misdemeanors. After that he's just copying himself.

[papsrus]

I found his neurotic shtick funny in the first three or four movies he appeared in, but from then on it bored me to death.

I agree, but then that's the way I feel about any actor who operates this way. Heck, even Jerry Lewis was funny for a picture or two..

As a director, though, I think it's true that the 'creepy pedophile' tag did hurt him greatly. After that episode, I just didn't seem to notice people discussing his movies as much as before. People can overlook a lot for art; apparently marrying your step-daughter isn't one of them.

I'm sure I'll get into trouble here, but Soon-Yi was not his stepdaughter. Allen and Farrow were never legally married and although they did legally adopt two children together, neither of those adoptions was Soon-Yi.

The more damaging accusation (never proved, obviously) was Farrow's claim that Allen molested their adopted daughter Dylan when she was seven.

The relationship between Soon-Yi and Allen seems to have begun when she was 22.

Unseemly in its beginnings, yeah. Illegal, no. And it's worth noting that the relationship has endured.

Beyond that, I won't defend it.

As for Allen's films, I'm a fan. Or at least used to be. He was able to create in his early films that sense of attraction and revulsion all in the same moment. You'd say, "Oh no, no no, that's awful! Hah, but yes! It's perfect!"

His character was usually to be scorned and envied all at the same time. Trouble is, we got it the first time (or first five or six times). It began to wear thin after a while and started to become just 'schtick."

I've seen just a handful of the films he's made in the last 20 years or so. I remember enjoying "Match Point." Certainly not the mountaintop of film making, but interesting.

[Neal Pomea]

I haven't seen too many of his films in the last twenty years either except Hollywood Ending, which I liked. I barely remember Manhattan Murder Mystery.

I am more partial to some of his lesser regarded films like Broadway Danny Rose, Zelig, Radio Days. I rate Danny Rose very highly.

I would be interested in seeing Match Point, which he says is perhaps closest to his original vision.

[J.A.W.]

Heck, even Jerry Lewis was funny for a picture or two..

[mjzee]

He has a heavy-duty work ethic, which I think works against him: He puts out one, sometimes two movies a year, every year, all of which he writes. They can't all be gems. "Whatever Works" was originally written for Zero Mostel, who died in 1977, so who knows how many screenplays he has stockpiled. At this point in his career, he should slow down and consider his films more thoughtfully. Probably the business side gets in the way of this: he regularly uses the same casting directors, cinematographers, etc, and would probably lose them on a different schedule.

But the world is different now, too. Back in the day ('70's, '80's), the auteur idea was in full effect: films are art forms created by the director, etc. I can't imagine anyone these days being excited by the directors we have today, as they churn out too much product, are beholden to the studios or to fads, etc. I mean, back then we had the French auteurs (Truffaut, Godard, Rohmer), '50's & '60's Americans (Cassavetes, Sam Fuller), the up-and-coming Americans (Scorsese, Coppola, Cimino), the masters (John Ford, Hitchcock). Who today could give their individual stamp to a picture? More importantly, the public simply doesn't care.

So if there's less of an interest in Woody's movies, it's probably due to:

1) Familiarity (he's trod the same ground over and over)

2) Subject matter (academic life on the Upper West Side - not exactly a subject with broad appeal)

3) His age

I think if he wants to reinvigorate his career, he should remake some recent movies. I'd love to see him remake "Booty Call" or "Dude Where's My Car?" Wouldn't you want to see that?

[Shawn]

Here are a few of my favorites:

A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy

Hannah & Her Sisters

Radio Days

Crimes And Misdemeanors

Everyone Says I Love You (I know, it's a musical, but I dug it)

Sweet And Lowdown

Match Point was overrated I thought.

Celebrity actually isn't that bad. Scoop is one of the worst movies I've ever seen...

Edited February 13, 2011 by Shawn

[king ubu]

Farrow is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more creeeeeeeeeeeeeeepy than Woody will ever get!

A complete nutcase as far as I'm concerned!

Funny should call "Scoop" the worst! I liked it a lot better than the over-rated "Match Point" (because Johansen just to look at won't suffice for me... she's a fine comedian and that got quite clear in "Scoop"). The worst must be that that Cooky Thief one and "The Curse of the Jade Scorpion".

Also I love "Zelig" and "Radio Days" and "Sweet and Lowdown"... guess I'm partial to the minor films of his, too...

[MartyJazz]

"Scoop" is a very predictable film and a horrible waste of celluloid. "Match Point" however, is a terrific drama/thriller, well worth seeing and one of Woody's best.

[Bright Moments]

zelig is a masterpiece

[Larry Kart]

Haven't seen it in years and don't know what I'd think of it now, but the only that got under my skin IIRC was "Annie Hall." And I attribute a good deal of that to the vintage kookiness/charm of Diane Keaton.

[thedwork]

...Woody Allen... it seems like he's not mentioned as much...

Is this my own perception, or has anyone else felt this also?

it's not just your perception. it's a sad fact.

Assuming yes, do you think the Soon-Yi scandal directly or indirectly played a role?

no question about it. the public did not look at him the same ever again. and i believe it ruined his career. there's no way to know, but i believe he would have made better films in recent years if he didn't have that horrible experience over his head. i don't think anyone would ever be able to shake off an episode like that - and all played out in front of the public. crushing. and, of course, it's his own fault. but i assume woody would simply say, "The heart wants what it wants." well, yes woody. but...

People can overlook a lot for art; apparently marrying your step-daughter isn't one of them.

I'm sure I'll get into trouble here, but Soon-Yi was not his stepdaughter. Allen and Farrow were never legally married and although they did legally adopt two children together, neither of those adoptions was Soon-Yi.

The more damaging accusation (never proved, obviously) was Farrow's claim that Allen molested their adopted daughter Dylan when she was seven.

The relationship between Soon-Yi and Allen seems to have begun when she was 22.

Unseemly in its beginnings, yeah. Illegal, no. And it's worth noting that the relationship has endured.

Beyond that, I won't defend it.

what paps said. perfect. and i would add that woody was certainly found not guilty of farrow's molestation claim and it seemed to me that farrow was simply being vengeful w/ that suit. ugly stuff...

I liked Celebrity a lot.

Celebrity was the very first woody allen movie that i did not enjoy. after watching his movies when they came out in theaters every year for over 20 years and essentially loving all of them, it was a very strange feeling leaving the theater knowing i did not like a woody allen movie. it was some kind of shock. i wouldn't say it was as bad as some of his more recent movies, but i really did not like it, and i assume it was mainly due to brannagh's "woody imitation." i've read that woody did not want him to play the part that way and spoke to him about it. but brannagh said it felt right to him to play it like that and woody said that he deferred to him because he had great respect for him as an actor. it didn't work. i will say that dicaprio was terrific in his little part in the film...

I think he said all he could say with his films up and including Crimes and Misdemeanors. After that he's just copying himself.

i think he made a lot of very good films through the 90s after Crimes And Misdemeanors: Husbands And Wives, Manhattan Murder Mystery, Bullets Over Broadway, Mighty Aphrodite, Everyone Says I Love You, and Deconstructing Harry. that's a strong decade. Husbands And Wives is, i feel, his best movie. and i believe that Bullets Over Broadway is probably his flat out funniest. i laugh my fucking ass off every time i watch that movie. just a perfect comedy. and at the same time it deals w/ a very deep idea: being able to face the fact that you're not an artist. it's a terrific movie. plus: Chazz!!!!!!!!@#$%

for me, it's been pretty much since 2000 that i've seen anything from him that i think i needed to see. Sweet And Lowdown was the last movie i've been totally satisfied with. great, great movie that was.

I would be interested in seeing Match Point, which he says is perhaps closest to his original vision.

in the book Woody Allen On Woody Allen, he speaks about Purple Rose Of Cairo being "closest to his original vision":

Bjorkman's question:

Are you never content when you've finish a film? Don't you ever have the feeling that 'This time I've made it, or almost made it?'

Woody's answer:

"Only on The Purple Rose Of Cairo. That's the closest I've come to a feeling of satisfaction. After that film I thought, 'Yes, this time I think I got it right where I wanted to get it...[and the following from earlier in the book]...The Purple Rose Of Cairo. That to me has always been a favorite, because I had an idea, and I got that idea on the screen as I wanted it. When it was finished I said, 'Yes I had a script and an idea - and there it is!' I managed to express myself the way I wanted..."

these comments were made before he did Match Point. but in my mind there's no comparing the two. Cairo is a far superior film. where did you read the woody quote on Match Point?

Edited February 13, 2011 by thedwork

[kinuta]

My favourite period is probably the cluster of films he did from the early '80's , namely

Zelig, Broadway Danny Rose, Purple Rose Of Cairo, Hannah & Her Sisters and Radio Days. Of the early period it has to be Annie Hall and Manhattan.

Of his late period films, I thought the first two of the 'British Trilogy' ie Match Point and Scoop were a low point but thankfully the recent You Will Meet A Tall Dark Stranger is much better. Sweet & Lowdown was great, as was Husbands & Wives,and Everyone Says I Love You.I loved Whatever Works and was surprised at the many negative reviews it received. Just goes to show what a subjective thing humour is.

I personally couldn't care less about his personal life.

Edited February 13, 2011 by kinuta

[Dave James]

How come no one ever mentions Take The Money And Run? If you're at all a fan of absurdist humor, it doesn't get much better than this. There are more memorable set pieces in that film that you can count. God, even the parents wearing Groucho glasses when they're interviewed is classic. Not to mention the whole bank robbery scene. I know this is far from anything deep or truly meaningful, but if you just need a good laugh, it's right up there with Blazing Saddles. The poor man's Cool Hand Luke.

[Free For All]

How come no one ever mentions Take The Money And Run? If you're at all a fan of absurdist humor, it doesn't get much better than this. There are more memorable set pieces in that film that you can count. God, even the parents wearing Groucho glasses when they're interviewed is classic. Not to mention the whole bank robbery scene. I know this is far from anything deep or truly meaningful, but if you just need a good laugh, it's right up there with Blazing Saddles. The poor man's Cool Hand Luke.

Wasn't that the one where he played cello in the marching band? I loved that scene.

[Big Al]

Haven't seen it in years and don't know what I'd think of it now, but the only that got under my skin IIRC was "Annie Hall." And I attribute a good deal of that to the vintage kookiness/charm of Diane Keaton.

I finally saw that the other night. Found it boring, pretentious, and completely overrated. What I truly don't get is why Diane Keaton is considered an actress of outstanding pedigree when it seems as if she's basically played "Annie Hall" in the bulk of her films?

Take it with a grain of salt, of course: my favorite is and always will be "Radio Days," but I haven't seen that in almost 20 years and I'm not sure I'd watch it the same way now as I did then. But I still love the soundtrack. (And on a semi-related note, one of my favorite scenes in that movie is Diane Keaton's uncredited cameo where she's singing. IMHO, it's a shame she never pursued some kind of singing career because, as she proved here as well as in "Annie Hall," she's got the chops)

[Dave James]

How come no one ever mentions Take The Money And Run? If you're at all a fan of absurdist humor, it doesn't get much better than this. There are more memorable set pieces in that film that you can count. God, even the parents wearing Groucho glasses when they're interviewed is classic. Not to mention the whole bank robbery scene. I know this is far from anything deep or truly meaningful, but if you just need a good laugh, it's right up there with Blazing Saddles. The poor man's Cool Hand Luke.

Wasn't that the one where he played cello in the marching band? I loved that scene.

That's the one. I forgotten that scene. He has the cello and a chair and every time he gets ready to play, he has to get up and move to keep up with the band.

[jazzbo]

I haven't seen too many of the films he made this century. I really do enjoy most of his twentieth century films.

My real favorite Allen material are the recordings of his nightclub act, and those early books (and other published material.) That is in my opinion genius stuff. I'd be overjoyed to be half that funny and clever and insightful.