Peter A Posted September 12, 2006 Report Posted September 12, 2006 Hello, I'm new to this forum and would to share someinpressions about the topic. Everybody here talks about Blue Note madness, how high are now NM original press especially Lex, NY 23, and W63. And fifty more albums that are very expensive ( Colossus, Overseas, Jaro, Ad Lib Transition etc...). I've been collecting for ten years, an believe it or not, i eventually got tired of Blue Note ! I have many BN originals, including some of the most sought after (i don't say : Rare), i spent a lot of money buying them, and i realized that, altghough Blue Note albums are wonderful there are many non-BN album that are as hip, as groovy, as funky, as interesting as Blue Note ! Here are some of my favourite : Tony Fruscella ! Don Sleet (this one is worth 50 $ ! imagine with a BN number : 500 or +), Tommy Turrentine on Time ! Warne Marsh ! Many Epics (Chartlie Rouse, Dave Bailey), Rocky Boyd, Rene Thomas (Guitar Groove : worth 50 $ ! one of the greatest guitar albums ! ) Rolf Kuhn (Streamline : worth 120 $) Sonny Criss on Imperial etc, many Prestige, Riverside, Savoy I think that it is still possible to build an interesting collection (of course, far from the 75000 records fantasm ! ), with rare and desirable records. in fact, only Blue Note prices are growing senselessly. For many records, prices are stable. And -, you can still find them for a bargain. I paid 160 $ for a NM copy of Warm Woods on Ebay, 275 for Rocky Boyd etc... Most of the time, 1000+ prices are commanded by 1) the reputation of the dealer, 2) the "i-want-this-record- no matter-what price" state of mind, and the competition between two bidders. Remember the Monk RLP 242 that sold 3000 $ at Atomic ! if i try to sell my copy, it will probably reach 250. Period. Here's one i've never seen (in fact : one time on Anthony Pearson auction ) : Will Davis Trio "have mood, will call", on Sue LP 1011. I'd really like to catch this one. Thanks for comments ! Michel Welcome to the Organissimo Forum! I agree with you that, apart from original Blue Note LP's, many nice originals can be found. On the other hand, some of the records you mention have aren't really cheapo's either. For instance the Atlantic of Tony Fruscella has always been rare (and expensive). The same counts for the Sonny Criss LP's on Imperial. The Epic's, the Rocky Boyd LP and Dave Bailey LP on Jazzline have indeed become very expensive lately. Agree with the LP's of Sleet and Thomas on Jazzland; they are great! Regards, Peter Quote
michel1969 Posted September 12, 2006 Report Posted September 12, 2006 Another example of the Ebay madness : the flat edge madness. Many early Lex and NY23 Blue Note are described as "flat edge" (often meaning : "early" or "first press" / last flat was 1557, right or wrong ?). And flat edge attract premium bids, high price, mass hysteria etc... But in fact, many other record from other labels (Prestige, Riverside) should be described as flat edge or not, when necessary. For example, i have two copies of Tony Fruscella on Atlantic : one has a flat edge, the other has not. So there are obviously two pressings of this record. Anyway, its never mentionned on Ebay auctions, and prices are always the same for a NM record, although there are two editions and two covers, also (one framed, the other not). Every details is described on Blue Note, but the same details are often ignored on other labels... Hey after all, are those high bidders REAL connoiseurs ? I remember this guy bidding on a True Blue 4041, described as original STEREO (!!) pressing "STILL SEALED" (!!!). Tried to warn him two times.. Eventually he won the record (more than 400 $ !!!). After that, when he received the record he left negative, of course. I contacted him : "hey, i tried to warn you that you were bidding on a reissue" he answered "i did not know that there was no original stereo edition of True Blue"... To sum up, the guys bids 400 on something that he doesn't even know... Quote
clifford_thornton Posted September 12, 2006 Report Posted September 12, 2006 Yeah, but some other numnutz had to help him get to $400! Quote
michel1969 Posted September 12, 2006 Report Posted September 12, 2006 Yes... i must admit, they were a bunch of .... how do you say, "nunmutz" ? definitely right ! Quote
michel1969 Posted September 12, 2006 Report Posted September 12, 2006 Yes... i must admit, they were a bunch of .... how do you say, "nunmutz" ? definitely right ! The admiral Nunmutz eventually won the Stereo True Blue battle (against some Japanese i believe...) Quote
Peter A Posted September 13, 2006 Report Posted September 13, 2006 But in fact, many other record from other labels (Prestige, Riverside) should be described as flat edge or not, when necessary. For example, i have two copies of Tony Fruscella on Atlantic : one has a flat edge, the other has not. So there are obviously two pressings of this record. Anyway, its never mentionned on Ebay auctions, and prices are always the same for a NM record, although there are two editions and two covers, also (one framed, the other not). Every details is described on Blue Note, but the same details are often ignored on other labels... That's why one should always ask questions to the seller. It's not possible to determine a first pressing only by looking at the label (e.g. white Riverside label or Prestige label with NY address), but also to look at the disc characteristics. Some big selling dics (e.g. Miles Davis) have been repressed w/the Prestige NY label, but only the first pressing (A stampers) has no safety lip. A lot of the early Riverside LP's (w/white label) you see in Europe have a safety lip as well and GB patent nrs stamped into the vinyl. These are IMO Europeas pressings - the American pressings are a lot heavier and have no safetly lip (and do sound better). Life is not always easy for jazz record collectors! Quote
sidewinder Posted September 13, 2006 Report Posted September 13, 2006 (edited) Yeah, but some other numnutz had to help him get to $400! What 'stereo' pressing was that one? A Conn 'Wally'? Edited September 13, 2006 by sidewinder Quote
michel1969 Posted September 13, 2006 Report Posted September 13, 2006 . A lot of the early Riverside LP's (w/white label) you see in Europe have a safety lip as well and GB patent nrs stamped into the vinyl. These are IMO Europeas pressings - the American pressings are a lot heavier and have no safetly lip (and do sound better). European pressings or US press FOR european market ? They also bear an "US" pat. The weight difference is stunning, anyway. The "jazz lab" (12-229) is one of the heaviest record i've ever seen ! Quote
Peter A Posted September 13, 2006 Report Posted September 13, 2006 European pressings or US press FOR european market ? They also bear an "US" pat. The weight difference is stunning, anyway. The "jazz lab" (12-229) is one of the heaviest record i've ever seen ! Yes, but why would Riverside have taken the trouble to press different, thinner LP's for the European market? Also: safety-lip pressings are probably pressed on newer equipment than the "flat edge" ones. But the covers for these later pressings are the same as the "originals". As for the sound: I have safetly-lip versions of Jazz Lab and Monk's Brilliant Corners which do not sound incredible. On the other hand my "flat edge" white label pressings of New Jazz Conceptions (12-223) and Kenny Drew Trio (12-224) sound amazing! Quote
michel1969 Posted September 13, 2006 Report Posted September 13, 2006 Anyway, i bought both "safety lips" Riverside with "pat pend" and "flat edge" in the US. if anyone has more information, it would be interesting. Quote
Big Al Posted September 13, 2006 Report Posted September 13, 2006 Yeah, but some other numnutz had to help him get to $400! Numnutz..... Haven't heard that in a LONG time! However, speaking of numnutzes..... Quote
michel1969 Posted September 13, 2006 Report Posted September 13, 2006 yes, i've seen it ! no numnutzes yet... Quote
sidewinder Posted September 15, 2006 Report Posted September 15, 2006 Looks like a K-Tel Mosaic. What a bargain ! Quote
michel1969 Posted September 24, 2006 Report Posted September 24, 2006 Talking about Ebay madness. A VG+ copy of Cool Struttin, described as first press, did not make its reserve price (high bid was 630 $). Although the photo and description were quite blured and short, and in spite the fact that it was not a reputable dealer, does it mean anyway that ebay madness is getting a little down ??? No more millionnaire to fill the shelves with Ania O'days legs ?????? Your opinion ? Quote
michel1969 Posted September 24, 2006 Report Posted September 24, 2006 A lot of the early Riverside LP's (w/white label) you see in Europe have a safety lip as well and GB patent nrs stamped into the vinyl. These are IMO Europeas pressings - the American pressings are a lot heavier and have no safetly lip (and do sound better). Of course flat edge white label are first press but i think that non flat white lbl with that "brit pat" are US later press (lighter vinyl and safety lip). They were meant to be sold also in England. In a third period (when ? i remember (?) some titles in british pressings with white label, while US already switched to blue) Riverside were manufactured in England by Fontana and distributed in Europe (you can still find many of them in France). What is your opinion Sidewinder ? Excuse my curiosity ! i'm so happy to have found someone who is also interested by Riverside... Quote
sidewinder Posted September 24, 2006 Report Posted September 24, 2006 A lot of the early Riverside LP's (w/white label) you see in Europe have a safety lip as well and GB patent nrs stamped into the vinyl. These are IMO Europeas pressings - the American pressings are a lot heavier and have no safetly lip (and do sound better). Of course flat edge white label are first press but i think that non flat white lbl with that "brit pat" are US later press (lighter vinyl and safety lip). They were meant to be sold also in England. In a third period (when ? i remember (?) some titles in british pressings with white label, while US already switched to blue) Riverside were manufactured in England by Fontana and distributed in Europe (you can still find many of them in France). What is your opinion Sidewinder ? Excuse my curiosity ! i'm so happy to have found someone who is also interested by Riverside... The UK Riversides were produced by 'Interdisc' for Riverside and don't have the flat edge - however the early ones have nice heavy vinyl (I have a 'Sounds of Sonny' that is in this category). These can sound superb in the mono pressing. The later ones have the blue label and lighter vinyl but again sound good and have original laminated cover art. I have a 'Kerry Dancers' by Johnny Griffin that is in this category that I'm sure sounds as good as the US version; it is magnificent. The great thing was, it only cost £5 ! Quote
michel1969 Posted September 24, 2006 Report Posted September 24, 2006 A lot of the early Riverside LP's (w/white label) you see in Europe have a safety lip as well and GB patent nrs stamped into the vinyl. These are IMO Europeas pressings - the American pressings are a lot heavier and have no safetly lip (and do sound better). Of course flat edge white label are first press but i think that non flat white lbl with that "brit pat" are US later press (lighter vinyl and safety lip). They were meant to be sold also in England. In a third period (when ? i remember (?) some titles in british pressings with white label, while US already switched to blue) Riverside were manufactured in England by Fontana and distributed in Europe (you can still find many of them in France). What is your opinion Sidewinder ? Excuse my curiosity ! i'm so happy to have found someone who is also interested by Riverside... The UK Riversides were produced by 'Interdisc' for Riverside and don't have the flat edge - however the early ones have nice heavy vinyl (I have a 'Sounds of Sonny' that is in this category). These can sound superb in the mono pressing. The later ones have the blue label and lighter vinyl but again sound good and have original laminated cover art. I have a 'Kerry Dancers' by Johnny Griffin that is in this category that I'm sure sounds as good as the US version; it is magnificent. The great thing was, it only cost £5 ! Yes i have an english bill evans "moon beams" that sounds nice. Quote
michel1969 Posted September 24, 2006 Report Posted September 24, 2006 What do you think of Riverside US press ? They seem to be very deceiving. i have a copy of "the trio" that looks NM. Anyway, it has plenty of little noises, hiss etc...it drives me mad !!!! vinyl is near perfect and there are plenty of noises !!! i can't explain exept for the quality of the pressing in itself. Quote
sidewinder Posted September 24, 2006 Report Posted September 24, 2006 What do you think of Riverside US press ? They seem to be very deceiving. i have a copy of "the trio" that looks NM. Anyway, it has plenty of little noises, hiss etc...it drives me mad !!!! vinyl is near perfect and there are plenty of noises !!! i can't explain exept for the quality of the pressing in itself. They can be very variable, in my experience (a bit like New Jazz in that respect - when good they are very good. When bad they completely suck). I've had more luck with the UK pressings, to be honest. I think some of the very early ones came out over here on Parlophone and these are probably the best of the UK versions. Very heavy vinyl. Quote
michel1969 Posted September 24, 2006 Report Posted September 24, 2006 [ ] They can be very variable, in my experience (a bit like New Jazz in that respect - when good they are very good. When bad they completely suck). I've had more luck with the UK pressings, to be honest. I think some of the very early ones came out over here on Parlophone and these are probably the best of the UK versions. Very heavy vinyl. Quote
Jazzmoose Posted September 25, 2006 Report Posted September 25, 2006 Too much money laying around? Try this lot. Quote
sidewinder Posted September 25, 2006 Report Posted September 25, 2006 Too much money laying around? Try this lot. Interesting... surely not TP originals in mint? Very scanty information, suspect these must be TPs of Classic reissues, perhaps? A few photos would have helped in the listing. Anyway, I'm broke. Quote
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