The Brave New World of recording

[AllenLowe]

I was going to put this on the Bluenote thread, but decided to start a new topic; the following is just my opinion, but based on personal experience.

in terms of acoustic jazz, the whole sonic/recording thing is REALLY overblown and over-mystified - yes there are great engineers like Goodman at RCA and DuNann at Contemporary - but as one who has done his own recording for years (Roswell Rudd said to me after one such session that I had caught his sound better than any other engineer) I can testify that the crucial ingredients are:

1) a good sounding room:total cost: free if you can find one and sneak in or if you have a living room like mine

2) good microphones: lets say 8 microphones: 2 Neumann 87 replicas, 2 Neuman 47 replicas, 2 sm 94s 2 Sm81s: total: $2000

3) good preamps: I recommend an 8 channel Mackie Onxy: total: $600

4) good musicians: well, this varies, but my guys are doing it for free, for the project

5) a good recording machine (24 bit now; or a nice analog multi-track with enough head room): mine cost $300

I can honestly say that, with almost all of the above (I've been recording 4 and 5 musicians), I have been able to make recordings in my living room that sound as good as Rudy's or anyone else; no kidding, I will send CDR samples to anyone who does not believe me (and I recently recorded the acoustic bass "live" with a nice condsenser and it sounds aboslutely great as long as it is panned correctly).

also, let me mention that these are basically "live" multi-track recordings that, for mixing purposes, tend to pan in the final mix at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock or 10 and 2; this helps with any inherent leakage (which is significantly reduced by using electret condensers) and is a very natural sounding spread in terms of the listener (it also helps to isolate the bass when it is, as I recenly did, recorded acoustically).

now that comes to under $3000 and you are set for life, and can be cheaper if, like me, you shop intelligently for used equipment, or if you record smaller groups (also, let me admit, it's a little easier for me because I use an electronic drummer, and only his amp has to be mic'd; it's tougher with an actual drummer, but I still think it can be done well with 2-3 mics) -

also, as I have mentioned somewhere else, there is a guy in Vancouver who imports cheap Chines mics and upgrades them to replicas of 87s, 47, 414s, Re 20s, and other great mics, both tube and fet (I have avoided tube mics, which I love, because they are a bit more tempermental and I just don't have the patience to deal with them these days) - his mics are inredible and superior to what I have heard in higher-priced contemporary Neumanns and others.

as I said, I would be happy to send sample CDRs to anyone who wants to hear things I've recorded with the above setup - Larry Kart has heard some of it and he might be able to comment. A lot of it will be out on our next CD thing, coming out in the Spring.

I use no isolation or compression and I like the fact that there is leakage, and I have not had any phasing problems. Also I am not particularly good technically but I have big ears and tend to have pretty good sonic taste, which compensates somewhat.

I also, last summer, picked up a Zoom R16, a cheap little plastic 8 track that, at 24 bit, sounds amazing, better than my prior and more expensive 4 track 24 bit machine; in addition I love those Onyx preamps, which I use ahead of the Zoom, and which are clean and solid state but not cold or sterile sounding.

LET ME ADD: a key component to the final mix is a digital reverb program called Waves True Verb, which I have tweaked for a very natural "room" sound which is very close to the old Riverside/Contemporary aura.

Note that with this setup one has less post-recording flexibility - though I have gotten good at editing out fluffs - and overdubbing post-production is out, but one ends up with a real-sounding recording of real musicians sweating it out.

Edited January 25, 2011 by AllenLowe

[lipi]

Thanks for this thread, Allen. I've been experimenting with recording a group of musician friends, and it's nice to know how someone with way more knowledge does it.

2) good microphones: lets say 8 microphones: 2 Neumann 87 replicas, 2 Neuman 47 replicas, 2 sm 94s 2 Sm81s: total: $2000

Do you have some specific recommendations? All the Neumann-like mics I've seen are $1000 (or more) each, making it hard to reach the $2000 total. Instead, I've been thinking about picking up some SM57s to go with the fancy condenser stereo mic I have.

also, as I have mentioned somewhere else, there is a guy in Vancouver who imports cheap Chines mics and upgrades them to replicas of 87s, 47, 414s, Re 20s, and other great mics, both tube and fet (I have avoided tube mics, which I love, because they are a bit more tempermental and I just don't have the patience to deal with them these days) - his mics are inredible and superior to what I have heard in higher-priced contemporary Neumanns and others.

Can you share the contact info for this guy? Does he have a website?

I also, last summer, picked up a Zoom R16, a cheap little plastic 8 track that, at 24 bit, sounds amazing, better than my prior and more expensive 4 track 24 bit machine;

Hey! Is the prior more expensive one the Fast Track Ultra I bought from you?

I've been using a SASS-P (mark I) plugged directly into two channels of the Fast Track, which then connects via USB to my Macbook running Audacity. The most frustrating thing has been trying to figure out mic placement. Since I only have the one stereo pair for now, I would want to set it smack dab in the middle...o.k., in front of the band. I've been trying to record live at dances, though, so it's not possible to stick a mic right in front (people want to see the band, and are likely to bump into any mic stand on the floor--there's no stage). Eliminating room noise (dancers chatting, etc.) and still getting an O.K. sound from the band has been hard.

[AllenLowe]

what I'm using are 2 Neumann knockoffs - made by Dave Thomas of applied audio - I think that's the name - I'll look it up - neither of them was more than $300-400 and they sound incredibly good, on horn and piano. The 57 is fine, but I like some others better, like the SM81 and SM 94 (both Shure). But I would talk to this guy in Vancouver, he's great and honest.

the Fast Track ultra wasn't a recording machine, just a sound card with preamps, as I recall - my 4 track was an Edirol, small and nice, but the Zoom tops it, at 24/44.

recording with one stereo pair can be done, but not easily, especially in a "live situation" - you kinda have to set it up like the human ear hears things, I think.

The Mackie Onyx preamps are the real find, IMHO - clear and warm. You can get them in various strips, the price has actually come down.

just found the link - I would go with this guy over anything else for quality and price: http://www.aamicrophones.com/about_us.htm

[mikeweil]

Allen, I agree with you 100%. An old friend of mine basically uses similar equipment to the items you described, sometimes works with just two microphones, and yes, the sound is just as great as some of the stuff labelled audiophile. I played my second recording session with him back in 1978 and it still sounds excellent. Much of his gear is similar to yours, like the Mackie.

But this kind of sound cannot be appreciated on any type of playback equipment, I find. And it doesn't sound as fancy as ECM with all its digital room ambience etc. But it's honest.

Biggest problem over here is finding a good sounding room and a band that's able to play live in a proper balance.

[AllenLowe]

so much modern recording is, to my way of thinking, for the convenience of the engineer - it's easiest to have everybody in a booth, isolated, like interchangeable musical parts to be manipulated afterward - I was talking with Peter Stampfel recently (of the old Holy Modal Rounders) and he pointed out that when musicians' sounds leak into each other it produces harmonics that are lost with isolation techniques, and I think he's absolutely right.

[mikeweil]

Agreed - I don't think you can't get a real group sound just through the mix. The room makes the mix. Many instruments will sound real good only when you record them in the proper room - like congas. Close miking of congas sound terrible to my ears, and produces a sound totally different from what the player hears.

[lipi]

The Mackie Onyx preamps are the real find, IMHO - clear and warm. You can get them in various strips, the price has actually come down.

I'll look into these, though I'm happy with my Fast Track's amp for now.

just found the link - I would go with this guy over anything else for quality and price: http://www.aamicrophones.com/about_us.htm

Thanks!

[AllenLowe]

the fast track is excellent - but you'll hear the difference with the Onyx -