Sidney Bechet

[Niko]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Just wait. It will happen. And when it happens, it will be insufferable. 

I have quite a few records I'll unload when it happens, all bought for less than 10% of the current price of a new LP (which suggests that as an investment those records didn't do too well between the time of their creation and now)...I mean: some of those old-time jazz records I really like a lot... but others I am only keeping because no shop will take them... a few are so awful I'll probably give them away for free in the near future (this one for instance had a *1/2 review in Downbeat for a reason when it appeared in the late 60s). 

Back on topic: I also have a few Bechet records but I don't really get him... will not buy additional ones (except if I see the one with Solal...) Regarding that boxset bargain, I guess what helps is when a record is mistaken for a book... 

[Big Beat Steve]

My thoughts exactly at first about having mistaken that box set for a book. BUT - the contents of the CDs figure PROMINENTLY on the BACK of the (outer) case. So hard to miss ...

As for that LP with the 1 1/2* review in DB in 1969 that you linked (Jimmy O'Bryant's Washboard Wonders on Biograph), the reviewer may have had a reason indeed. But was this a valid one over time?
Not that I would claim these bands produced superior art, and I'd never pay full price for this one either (though in a similar vein I've got one or two Washboard Rhythm Kings LPs on my search list right now). But tastes differ and one man's meat is another man's poison, and isn't it strange that subsequent reissue labels built a lot of their catalog on this kind of early recordings, leaving no reissue stone unturned (notably Document and RST)? Which is bound to bring some dross to the surface too.
These labels cater(ed) to a niche clientele - but one that exists (or existed) and that the reviewer either didn't get (nor the music itself) or, what is more likely IMO, such recordings just were not in the spirit of the time and place that the review appeared. Across all styles of jazz it sometimes is amazing how assessments of recordings differ either between different reviewers in different mags or between the time the record was new (when it was reviewed in DB, for instance) and when it was reissued much later (with a review in the All Music Guide, for instance).

Re-Bechet and not getting him, I hear you ... I must admit Sidney Bechet is one of those who I usually take in moderate doses. I really depends on my mood; there are days when I just find his tone too strident and piercing after a while. But with this particular box fidelity really is so excellent that, at least if taken in smaller instalments, you cannot help feeling that Becher really ROCKS at these concerts!
Likely more so than as per the title of this LP released in the mid-60s ...
https://www.discogs.com/de/master/1500303-Sidney-Bechet-Rocking/image/SW1hZ2U6MzE0Mzg1NDE=
... where Fontana blatantly tried to cash in on the "Rocking" tag (there were other jazz reissues in that "Rocking!" series at the time IIRC). I bought this one mostly for that cover real cheap a couple of years ago - it is fun to listen to (reissues from 1947-49) but not essential.  And when I bow out one day, records like this might as well go without netting my heirs anything to speak of too.

Edited Friday at 01:29 PM by Big Beat Steve

[Rabshakeh]

I do wish that there were more places to get information on this sort of music past 1939. There are hardly any guides treating it as anything other than a footnote. 

[Big Beat Steve]

As for "past 1939", you mean more or less recent TEXT sources that deal with the REVIVAL jazz era of what stylistically is termed "oldtime jazz" or "classic jazz"? I.e. in the case of the USA, covering the 40s and 50s in particular, and whatever classic jazz revival remained later (Bob Wilber, e.g.)?
And I gues many would want to distinguish between the old heroes carrying on for as long as they lived (Edmond Hall, De Paris brothers etc., Eddie Condon too) and the next generation (Turk Murphy, Bob Scobey, Pete Fountain and whoever else).

And not to be mixed up with the entire (European) "Trad jazz" scene that we had discussed in an earlier thread.

There ARE sources on the Revival side of jazz after 1940-45, but they are scattered and hard to summarize in an efficient way. I am not familiar with too many books or sites on that subject but whatever I thought of right now raises more questions than it has answers on "what else" there also should be.

 

[Rabshakeh]

30 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

As for "past 1939", you mean more or less recent TEXT sources that deal with the REVIVAL jazz era of what stylistically is termed "oldtime jazz" or "classic jazz"? I.e. in the case of the USA, covering the 40s and 50s in particular, and whatever classic jazz revival remained later (Bob Wilber, e.g.)?
And I gues many would want to distinguish between the old heroes carrying on for as long as they lived (Edmond Hall, De Paris brothers etc., Eddie Condon too) and the next generation (Turk Murphy, Bob Scobey, Pete Fountain and whoever else).

And not to be mixed up with the entire (European) "Trad jazz" scene that we had discussed in an earlier thread.

There ARE sources on the Revival side of jazz after 1940-45, but they are scattered and hard to summarize in an efficient way. I am not familiar with too many books or sites on that subject but whatever I thought of right now raises more questions than it has answers on "what else" there also should be.

I mean any of it, really. There's a bit more text out there on "trad jazz" in the UK than the very various US scenes. But hardly much even there.

[JSngry]

Sidney Bechet was a SERIOUSLY BAD MAN until his last note.  

End of story.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

I mean any of it, really. There's a bit more text out there on "trad jazz" in the UK than the very various US scenes. But hardly much even there.

A shot in the dark ... but as for websites to start with, how about checking out the websites linked on this site?

http://www.harlem-fuss.com/links.html

I haven't checked all of them (not nearly) but those I have seen of course aren't dedicated exclusively to classic or oldtime jazz but many give fair coverage of artists from that period.
E.g. jazzArcheology.com
or
www.thereisjazzbeforetrane.blogspot.com
(I think our forumist EKE BBB is behind this - and the name of this blog is an oh so true statement in itself that needs to be driven home to many, many present-day jazz listeners for sure - not on this forum but very much so in general out there ...)

[kh1958]

The best sources for Traditional New Orleans Jazz (the correct name) are right below:

www.jazzology.com

www.louisianamusicfactory.com

There isn't much written commentary on the subject, you just have to listen.

Edited Friday at 05:19 PM by kh1958

[Rabshakeh]

28 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

 

28 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

There isn't much written commentary on the subject, you just have to listen.

I'm most interested in the albums. What I want most is a source that directs me towards the major records that caused a splash in this closed community. 

[Niko]

On 1/24/2025 at 2:25 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

My thoughts exactly at first about having mistaken that box set for a book. BUT - the contents of the CDs figure PROMINENTLY on the BACK of the (outer) case. So hard to miss ...

As for that LP with the 1 1/2* review in DB in 1969 that you linked (Jimmy O'Bryant's Washboard Wonders on Biograph), the reviewer may have had a reason indeed. But was this a valid one over time?
Not that I would claim these bands produced superior art, and I'd never pay full price for this one either (though in a similar vein I've got one or two Washboard Rhythm Kings LPs on my search list right now). But tastes differ and one man's meat is another man's poison, and isn't it strange that subsequent reissue labels built a lot of their catalog on this kind of early recordings, leaving no reissue stone unturned (notably Document and RST)? Which is bound to bring some dross to the surface too.
These labels cater(ed) to a niche clientele - but one that exists (or existed) and that the reviewer either didn't get (nor the music itself) or, what is more likely IMO, such recordings just were not in the spirit of the time and place that the review appeared. Across all styles of jazz it sometimes is amazing how assessments of recordings differ either between different reviewers in different mags or between the time the record was new (when it was reviewed in DB, for instance) and when it was reissued much later (with a review in the All Music Guide, for instance).

Re-Bechet and not getting him, I hear you ... I must admit Sidney Bechet is one of those who I usually take in moderate doses. I really depends on my mood; there are days when I just find his tone too strident and piercing after a while. But with this particular box fidelity really is so excellent that, at least if taken in smaller instalments, you cannot help feeling that Becher really ROCKS at these concerts!
Likely more so than as per the title of this LP released in the mid-60s ...
https://www.discogs.com/de/master/1500303-Sidney-Bechet-Rocking/image/SW1hZ2U6MzE0Mzg1NDE=
... where Fontana blatantly tried to cash in on the "Rocking" tag (there were other jazz reissues in that "Rocking!" series at the time IIRC). I bought this one mostly for that cover real cheap a couple of years ago - it is fun to listen to (reissues from 1947-49) but not essential.  And when I bow out one day, records like this might as well go without netting my heirs anything to speak of too.

just looked up the review again, it's in the 23 January 1969 issue... the review is by Dan Morgenstern, no less, and it's one of the harshest reviews I've read in Downbeat.. only * actually, not *1/2

The O’Bryant album, part of the first release by Biograph Records, a new branch of Historical devoted to material leased from the Paramount catalog, is a horrible mistake. Perhaps we need to know that bad music was made by jazzmen of the ’20s, but 12 tracks of mediocre “hokum” music seem a needlessly sadistic way to belabor that obvious point. O'Bryant, a much-recorded Chicago-based clarinetist, died young, probably
in the mid-1930s. The liner notes state that he was a major musician, but his music nullifies the claim. That he was once mistaken for Johnny Dodds (on other records than these) proves only that some people have tin ears.

Not even Jimmy Blythe's excellent piano can redeem this set, especially since he only has one short solo spot. Jasper Taylor plays nice washboard, but washboard can’t save the day. The sole ray of musical light is shed by Bob Shoffner, who appears on one track. This is a collection of some of the corniest music ever rescued from well-deserved oblivion. In fairness to O’Bryant, it must be noted that he could play better than he did here (the records were deliberately corny—the laughing clarinet was the forerunner of the honking tenor). 

In principle, yes, some people must have liked the music better than Morgenstern, otherwise it would never have been recorded and reissued... when I got the record (it was supposed to cost 3 Euro but it was on sale for 1 Euro iirc) and first played it, I just felt it get on my nerves in a way few records do... so I started to read around a bit and found the Morgenstern review spot on... 

Regarding online resources for old-time jazz, I can also recommend the collection of articles here: 

http://vjm.biz/articles.html

[Big Beat Steve]

O.T., but ...
You made me curious, Niko ... If I find that record for 1 EUR I might well pick it up too (the French BYG pressing should be around somewhere ...). 😄 Some of the musicians mentioned were no slouches in their time so I'm wondering .... I have a corner reserved for washboard/jug/hokum bands in the blues/R&B section of my vinyls but nothing by him. At first or second hearing, most of these bands are an acquired taste and you need to be in the right mood to appreciate them (and the limitations of 20s or early 30s recording technology did not always help either). But they did serve a market that most definitely was not that of "art jazz".

https://www.discogs.com/de/artist/313185-Jimmy-OBryant?superFilter=Releases&subFilter=Compilations

Not wanting to blame Dan Morgenstern unduly, but that review reeks of a deeper antipathy against what at one time was termed "hokum". Which is all very well but the review maybe should have been left to someone more sympathetic with the broader style within which fell that record, and then judge it from there for faults and flaws WITHIN the broader idiom and not from an antipathy per se. BTW, Morgenstern guessed wrong about Jimmy O'Bryant's biography (a much-recorded but indeed shady figure). Quote from John Chilton's "Who's Who of Jazz": "I am indebted to Walter C. Allen for supplying me with information culled from the Chicago Defender dated 30th June 1928.  The paper reports that O'Bryant died in the County Hospital., Chicago."

For a somewhat different perspective on him, see the comments by Allen Lowe (no less too ) from the liner book of his "Really The Blues?" CD anthology, Vol. 1 re- Lovie Austin's recording of "Steppin' on the Blues" feat. Tommy Ladnier and Jimmy O'Bryant (1924): "... clarinetist O'Bryant (was) something of a biographical mystery but a fierce advocate for just about anything he played. The blues was THE format for his primitive but passionately improvised squalls which gives these recordings an oddly nationalist (naturalist?) tint. This is the early jazz-blues, no longer content to just shuffle along."
See what I mean?

Edited yesterday at 04:12 PM by Big Beat Steve

[Big Beat Steve]

BTW, Niko ...Thanks for the link to the VJM website. Quite interesting - bookmarked now ...

 

 

[Niko]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

BTW, Niko ...Thanks for the link to the VJM website. Quite interesting - bookmarked now ...

 

 

read a bit myself again, like this article about Jean Goldkette's origins... 

http://vjm.biz/138goldkette-article.pdf

wonderful stuff... The O'Bryant record came from a huge collection that is being offered to us in small pieces... I must have bought like 30 records (even one today, Dave Brubeck's Jazz goes to College), loads of wonderful stuff, including some more jug band type things... I only had this strong reaction to this record, but I'll listen again and report back (not in this thread though). Generally, it just hurts to see, say, a complete run of Graeme Bell albums, knowing that - given my space restrictions - taking seven of the Earl Hines solo albums is crazy enough... especially since there are not many collectors left who even know who Graeme Bell was... 

[Big Beat Steve]

Graeme Bell was another one who was torn to shreds in the reviews (in this case by Nat Hentoff in a review of his LP on the Angel label in a 1955 Down Beat - one star ...).

"Offered to us in small pieces" - you mean, that collection finds its way into the crates of "your" shop only slowly and in small lots? Happens here sometimes too. I recently picked two records from the Sale bins here that - judging by handwritten numbering stickers on the back covers - came from a collection that I had already bought records from about 10 years ago (and off and on in the intervening years) in the same shop.

Edited 8 hours ago by Big Beat Steve

[Niko]

3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

"Offered to us in small pieces" - you mean, that collection finds its way into the crates of "your" shop only slowly and in small lots? Happens here sometimes too. I recently picked two records from the Sale bins here that - judging by handwritten numbering stickers on the back covers - came from a collection that I had already bought records from about 10 years ago (and off and on in the intervening years) in the same shop.

yes, indeed... I never asked but it seems the policy is to keep the two boxes with new arrivals by the door fairly balanced across genres and to exchange its contents quickly... I guess that on a given day there are about 5-10 new jazz records, rarely fewer, occasionally quite a few more, like 30 or 40... and sometimes, when there is a lot of stuff, some of it goes straight to the basement room with bargains... but with a collection like this one (which has fairly characteristic stickers with numbering), apparently about 2000 records with 90% oldtime jazz, putting them all out there at the same time would completely flood the place... so they take their time with pricing etc / mix with other collections... 

I did get two nice Bechet records from this collection as well, a reissue of one of the Blue Note LPs with Art Hodes, and the Swaggie LP with the Bechet-Spanier Big Four...