Charlie Parker Savoy & Dial Master Takes v. Complete Studio Sessio

[Face of the Bass]

So I'd like to spend a little bit of Christmas money that I ran into on a jazz box, and I was thinking of upgrading my Charlie Parker collection. I currently have just the three-disc Savoy & Dial Master Takes box, which I really like, but after reading a bit online I'm wondering if it might not be worth it to upgrade to the full eight-disc Complete Studio Sessions Set. I was wondering if people who have the larger box can comment on whether all the extra outtakes are worth it, or if I should just stick with the three-disc set. Is the extra material worth it?

[JSngry]

If you really dig the specifics of Bird's playing, the answer is an unqualified yes.

[mjzee]

I think it's worth it. There's something about Bird's alternate takes that are sui generis. It's also fascinating to see how a tune evolves during the recording session. The booklet's essays are excellent.

Another thing to consider is the state of the CD business. Who knows how long this will be available, before they go to all downloads?

[jeffcrom]

Another yes. Bird was an improvisational genius; he generally didn't rework the same ideas from take to take like, say, Fat Navarro often did. The master takes were often selected as the best overall group performance, not the best Parker solo.

[Teasing the Korean]

Bird's solos are sometimes better on the alternate takes. I can only assume that some of the master takes were chosen because the group overall performed better.

I have all this stuff on LP, and as much as I love it, it drives me nuts when four takes of something are heard in a row. (I understand the logic, though). I need to upgrade to CD so I can program more effective sets.

[golfcrazy1984]

How is the sound quality on this set??? I am interested too as I don't have the studio sessions collection. Can anybody compare this to the Mosaic Charlie Parker set?

[mjzee]

How is the sound quality on this set??? I am interested too as I don't have the studio sessions collection. Can anybody compare this to the Mosaic Charlie Parker set?

No comparison; they're in two different worlds. The Mosaic box is of Dean Benedetti's homemade recordings (poor sound quality), chopped to only preserve Parker's solos. The Savoy box is the real deal: mostly studio sessions, with great sound quality. They really hit it out of the park on this one.

[jazzbo]

There's more than just alternates as a difference between the two sets. I say get the 8 disc, it will be a cornerstone of your Parker collection for years and years to come.

There are sessions in the Mosaic set with more complete items (i.e. not just Parker solos) and some sound pretty darned good all considered. But the Savoy/Dial box smokes them in the sound quality of the original source material. Both boxes have different types of liner notes, but they're both pretty good.

[Harold_Z]

I'm for the eight disc also. Bird's playing is always interesting and often great - even on incomplete alternates.

[king ubu]

There's more than just alternates as a difference between the two sets. I say get the 8 disc, it will be a cornerstone of your Parker collection for years and years to come.

I'll top that by saying it will be THE cornerstone of your Parker collection!

Wonderful set!

[John L]

When it comes to Bird, the notion of "alternates" is somewhat of a stretch. His art was to reconstruct spontaneously what was mostly a limited number of basic progressions. Therefore, an alternate is virtually the same as a different composition. Only the head is (usually) the same. In fact, Dial records sometimes exploited that fact by issuing the alternates under completely different names.

In other words, don't think of the 8 disc set as what you have now with a bunch of alternates. It is what you have now plus a lot more new music.

Edited January 1, 2011 by John L

[Quasimado]

he (Bird) generally didn't rework the same ideas from take to take like, say, Fat Navarro often did.

I love Bird. I also love Fats - to me the greatest of the bop trumpets. I have heard people say something like the quote above before concerning Fats, but I have never really heard it myself in his playing. I know the Prestige date with Lanphere pretty well, which has take after take on the same head, but to me each of Fat's contributions are different. Again with the well known "Nostalgia" on Savoy, there are 2 superb variations on the same tune which are profoundly different. I'm not trying for a putdown, but I am genuinely interested as to what you had in mind when you say that ...

Q

[jeffcrom]

he (Bird) generally didn't rework the same ideas from take to take like, say, Fat Navarro often did.

I love Bird. I also love Fats - to me the greatest of the bop trumpets. I have heard people say something like the quote above before concerning Fats, but I have never really heard it myself in his playing. I know the Prestige date with Lanphere pretty well, which has take after take on the same head, but to me each of Fat's contributions are different. Again with the well known "Nostalgia" on Savoy, there are 2 superb variations on the same tune which are profoundly different. I'm not trying for a putdown, but I am genuinely interested as to what you had in mind when you say that ...

Q

No, I don't take this as a putdown, and I didn't mean my comment as a putdown to Fats. It's just a different way of approaching a solo. What I'm talking about is probably best heard in the Blue Note recordings with Tadd Dameron's group. For instance:

The Chase - Fats starts both takes with the exact same phrase, and several other phrases show up in both takes.

The Squirrel - Fats' first two choruses are very similar on both takes - obviously from the same mental template.

Lady Bird - Fats starts both takes with the same phrase; after that the solos go in somewhat different directions.

There are other examples, but that's the kind of thing I was talking about. Let me be clear that I in no way think there's anything "wrong" with this; it's just a different approach than Bird usually took. I just listened to Bird's Dial session with J.J. Johnson, and Johnson played more or less the same solo on different takes of some of the tunes. When you've got some good melodic ideas, no sense in wasting them. Hell, think about all the Ellington soloists who played the exact same solos every night for years.

Fats is also one of my favorite trumpet players, and the fact the he sometimes repeated melodic ideas on different takes in no way detracts from his brilliance.

[jazzbo]

I think there's a distinct possibility that Fats was playing basically what Tadd wanted or expected him to play on that record date. . . .

[bichos]

he (Bird) generally didn't rework the same ideas from take to take like, say, Fat Navarro often did.

I love Bird. I also love Fats - to me the greatest of the bop trumpets. I have heard people say something like the quote above before concerning Fats, but I have never really heard it myself in his playing. I know the Prestige date with Lanphere pretty well, which has take after take on the same head, but to me each of Fat's contributions are different. Again with the well known "Nostalgia" on Savoy, there are 2 superb variations on the same tune which are profoundly different. I'm not trying for a putdown, but I am genuinely interested as to what you had in mind when you say that ...

Q

No, I don't take this as a putdown, and I didn't mean my comment as a putdown to Fats. It's just a different way of approaching a solo. What I'm talking about is probably best heard in the Blue Note recordings with Tadd Dameron's group. For instance:

The Chase - Fats starts both takes with the exact same phrase, and several other phrases show up in both takes.

The Squirrel - Fats' first two choruses are very similar on both takes - obviously from the same mental template.

Lady Bird - Fats starts both takes with the same phrase; after that the solos go in somewhat different directions.

There are other examples, but that's the kind of thing I was talking about. Let me be clear that I in no way think there's anything "wrong" with this; it's just a different approach than Bird usually took. I just listened to Bird's Dial session with J.J. Johnson, and Johnson played more or less the same solo on different takes of some of the tunes. When you've got some good melodic ideas, no sense in wasting them. Hell, think about all the Ellington soloists who played the exact same solos every night for years.

Fats is also one of my favorite trumpet players, and the fact the he sometimes repeated melodic ideas on different takes in no way detracts from his brilliance.

speaking about fats; by the way: here is a good book about fats navarro: the music and life of theodore "fats" navarro, infatuation by leif bo petersen & theo rehak, scarecrow press, 2009. a good book!

keep boppin´

marcel

[Face of the Bass]

You guys convinced me. I went for the 8 disc box.

[jazzbo]

Smooth move! Let us know what you think in a few weeks.

[ejp626]

You guys convinced me. I went for the 8 disc box.

If I could find it cheap enough, I would get this. I don't think anything/anyone would convince or compel me to get the Benedetti set. Just not my cup of tea.

[Face of the Bass]

Well I've been listening to this set regularly for the last week or so, and I'm definitely glad I went ahead and got it. There's something about having all these performances together that just makes Parker--as well as some of the other players on the set, from Miles and Dizzy to Howard McGhee and Curly Russell, to name a few--stand out.

Anyway, I'm going to listen some more. But thanks to all those who chipped in with their input. I may springboard off this set to get the Mosaic Benedetti box. I don't think the poor recording quality will be an issue for me. Someone in another thread implied that the Benedetti recording quality is a bit like the Bird on 52nd Street from Fantasy records. Well, I've heard clips of that and if there's more like that, I'm all over it.

[jazzbo]

Great to hear. I don't think the sound quality of the Mosaic set will bother you either, and in my opinion the California material can sound pretty damned good. And it's a fascinating group of recordings not entirely eclipsing the wonderful written material.

[John L]

Bird on 52nd Street is a good test. In fact, that music IS on the Mosaic Benedetti box. If you want more like that, get it!

[erwbol]

(I did a search and could not find a thread on here already dealing with this issue, so this recent thread seemed like the place.)

I only recently found out about the issue with disc 4 of the initial pressing of the complete set through this amazon review.

Quote:"In the accompanying booklet, the track information is incorrect for a number of tracks on discs seven and eight. A more serious problem is that at least some copies of the set are still being sold with a defective version of disc four, on which most of the tracks are recorded about 10% too fast. If you already have the set, you can determine whether your copy of disc four is defective by checking the timing of the master take of "Donna Lee" (track 13): if the timing is 2:35, you have the pitch-corrected disc, but if it is 2:22, you have the defective disc and need to get a replacement. As of this writing, you can do that by contacting Savoy at inquiries@savoyjazz.com; after asking you a question to verify that you have the defective disc, they will send you a replacement."

I contacted Savoy through the above email address and today received my replacement disc even though it has been a decade since that review was written and even longer since the release of the complete set. I also received an erratum with a corrected track list for discs 4, 7 & 8.

I'm very grateful they shipped these items to me free of charge even though I live in Europe and intercontinental shipping is not exactly cheap these days.

PS The total time on the corrected disc 4 reads 67:48 on my CD player, the defective disc 65:10.

[TedR]

Thanks for that update. Typing in the "inquiries" address I get send to slg.com (savoy label group) and a blank screen. I'll keep trying.

[erwbol]

Thanks for that update. Typing in the "inquiries" address I get send to slg.com (savoy label group) and a blank screen. I'll keep trying.

It's an email address, Ted.

By the way, they never asked me to confirm I had a defective disc nor did they reply to my email enquiry. I just got sent the corrected disc 4 and erratum.

Edited November 15, 2014 by erwbol

[TedR]

I hate to admit being stupid. I have no excuses since I've already had my coffee this am. Thanks for just the "wink" and for correcting me. :-)