A followup RE: Miles in Boston

[JSngry]

JZ ended up in Dallas; spent quite a few years here & became the stuff of legend. A true character, musically & personally!

I've had this for quite a while now on a tape dub made from the Fresh Sounds LP. Reviewing my notes, I see that I made a notation that the LP presented music that was in need of pitch correction, so I slowed the turntable down in order to do so as much as possible. I only hope that this new version has made the same correction.

[JSngry]

Checked the Amazon samples. Still a half step high.

[brownie]

I only hope that this new version has made the same correction.

If you're talking about the JazzDoor reissue, I would not count on them to rectify this.

I am pretty liberal with that kind of labels but avoid JazzDoor releases like the plague

They are one of the worst label dealing with bootlegs!

I stick to my FreshSound vinyl on that Miles!

[JSngry]

Ok, but that's still a half-step too high as well.

[king ubu]

Jim, can you confirm it's exactly a half step?

If so, that wouldn't be too much work to fix... (but first I gotta lay hands on this, of course - and where is Larry's thread to which I replied? I can't seem to find it any more!)

[JSngry]

Larry's original thread was probably deleted for "business" purposes (let's just not provide a link & see how it goes from here on out)...and I don't remember if it's exactly a half step, but it's pretty darn close to it if it's not. You can never be exactly sure about club dates like this, given the conditions of pianos, players natural intonations, etc, but you can get a general pitch center for the tunes, and in this case, slowing it down about a half step will fix it.

20 or so years ago, having a variable speed turntable made fixing it a piece of cake. Not sure what the digital fix is, but it's probably even easier. And it needs to be done.

[AllenLowe]

I can do speed correction by computer - it's a little like the original Bird/Rockland Palace LP - everybody was amazed at how fast he was playing until they realized he was playing Lester Leaps in in B -

and some dodo on the Sax on the Web board just posted how Bird was playing Sly Mongoose on that recording in Gb.

[king ubu]

Larry's original thread was probably deleted for "business" purposes (let's just not provide a link & see how it goes from here on out)...and I don't remember if it's exactly a half step, but it's pretty darn close to it if it's not. You can never be exactly sure about club dates like this, given the conditions of pianos, players natural intonations, etc, but you can get a general pitch center for the tunes, and in this case, slowing it down about a half step will fix it.

20 or so years ago, having a variable speed turntable made fixing it a piece of cake. Not sure what the digital fix is, but it's probably even easier. And it needs to be done.

I know it's not exact science of course, yes.

I'm no good in determining the pitch offsets, but if I get exact information, I can do such fixes - it's indeed pretty easy. The Miles in Amsterdam 1957 set with Barney Wilen is another one that suffers from wrong speed, btw.

[Larry Kart]

I deleted the thread because, without thinking as I should have, I provided a link to a bootleg, which violates forum rules. I could have just removed the link, but I fetl so dumb, being a moderator and all, that I deleted the whole thread, which I suppose spread dumb on top of dumb. But I'm dumb, or I was yesterday,

[king ubu]

Ah, never mind... we can't help it, alas, if amazon and everyone else is selling that crap - maybe we should sent Sue Mingus...

No need to feel stupid. I was just checking every forum here and doing searches with no luck... thanks for explaining!

[JSngry]

Larry's original thread was probably deleted for "business" purposes (let's just not provide a link & see how it goes from here on out)...and I don't remember if it's exactly a half step, but it's pretty darn close to it if it's not. You can never be exactly sure about club dates like this, given the conditions of pianos, players natural intonations, etc, but you can get a general pitch center for the tunes, and in this case, slowing it down about a half step will fix it.

20 or so years ago, having a variable speed turntable made fixing it a piece of cake. Not sure what the digital fix is, but it's probably even easier. And it needs to be done.

I know it's not exact science of course, yes.

I'm no good in determining the pitch offsets, but if I get exact information, I can do such fixes - it's indeed pretty easy. The Miles in Amsterdam 1957 set with Barney Wilen is another one that suffers from wrong speed, btw.

It's a not uncommon problem. Either the original recorder speed was off, or, I suspect, the tapes had been frequently played over the years & had stereched just enough to affect pitch on playback.

[king ubu]

Larry's original thread was probably deleted for "business" purposes (let's just not provide a link & see how it goes from here on out)...and I don't remember if it's exactly a half step, but it's pretty darn close to it if it's not. You can never be exactly sure about club dates like this, given the conditions of pianos, players natural intonations, etc, but you can get a general pitch center for the tunes, and in this case, slowing it down about a half step will fix it.

20 or so years ago, having a variable speed turntable made fixing it a piece of cake. Not sure what the digital fix is, but it's probably even easier. And it needs to be done.

I know it's not exact science of course, yes.

I'm no good in determining the pitch offsets, but if I get exact information, I can do such fixes - it's indeed pretty easy. The Miles in Amsterdam 1957 set with Barney Wilen is another one that suffers from wrong speed, btw.

It's a not uncommon problem. Either the original recorder speed was off, or, I suspect, the tapes had been frequently played over the years & had stereched just enough to affect pitch on playback.

More amazing, it still happens nowadays... I remember in particular one broadcast on Swiss radio that was wrong by quite some. And that was in the late 90s - no idea how that can happen in our digital age.

[AllenLowe]

hey, Paul Bley told me that ESP issued a CD of one of his old recordings for them that was a quarter tone off.

happens all the time; sometimes it's tricky figuring it out - eg, musicians (almost) never play in the key of B concert. But they might play in Db instead of C or G instead of Ab. This was a hazard with tape-based systems.

Edited November 15, 2010 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Then again, most tunes, especially "jazz originals" have "typical" keys, and when an entire album (such as this one) varies from those keys by half a step, it's probably safe to assume that either the speed is off or else somebody in the band was spending the night issuing/accepting a challenge...

I mean, "Well You Needn't" in F#? In 1955 (or earlier)? Not....likely...

no idea how that can happen in our digital age.

Bootleggers/Pirates usually don't know or care about proper pitch, and don't/can't be bothered with fixing it when it appears. Their only interest is a hit-and-run getting the product out there.

[Daniel A]

Either the original recorder speed was off, or, I suspect, the tapes had been frequently played over the years & had stereched just enough to affect pitch on playback.

Probably the recording equipment ran at the wrong speed. If the tape is streched the pitch would have been too low, not too high. In cases when CDs have been mastered from mis-pitched tapes, I feel lucky my old CD player has got a pitch control.

[king ubu]

no idea how that can happen in our digital age.

Bootleggers/Pirates usually don't know or care about proper pitch, and don't/can't be bothered with fixing it when it appears. Their only interest is a hit-and-run getting the product out there.

Of course! But it shouldn't happen with jazz live broadcasts on a radio station that uses top sound guys like Martin Pearson!

[mjzee]

It's pretty easy to do it in the digital era. I have a $40 program on my Mac called Amadeus Pro. There's a menu option Change Pitch and Speed...

Change Pitch and Speed.tiff

To do it well is another issue...

[AllenLowe]

Amadeus is a good program - Wavelab does it well, also. and the problem can be in EITHER recording or playback - if it is recorded too slow and played back right, it will be fast (sharp).

[JSngry]

Probably the recording equipment ran at the wrong speed. If the tape is streched the pitch would have been too low, not too high.

DOH!

My bad, big time.

[king ubu]

One more thing... the question arose if this is really from Feb. 1955 (as given by Losin, too) - someone mentioned this might rather be from 1953?

I'm no expert in Miles' schedule and when he had what band, but February 1955 would fall in place as a one-nighter... he only had his quintet later in 1955, right? And the Silver/Heath/Blakey (or Silver/Heath/Klook) unit wasn't regularly touring with him, I assume? They were just assembled for studio gigs regularly?

I'll soon have speed-fixed files available (more via PN!)

[John L]

I imagine that there must be good programs now that can pitch correct even in the case when the pitch on the tape is variable. It would be great to correct for the common variable tape drag in many private live recordings.

[king ubu]

If pitch is variable, to get it right is a lot of work!

I'd not trust any software... if it's wrong at constant speed (or getting faster/slower constantly as the tape runs) that can be fixed. But determinig the offset has to be done by someone with good enough ears... it's not mathematics!

I'd not try this myself - I just follow instructions of others who I trust can provide the necessary information.

[medjuck]

Uhhhh ...I can't find the thread to which this is a follow-up. (I did try "search"). Help please, someone.

[king ubu]

Uhhhh ...I can't find the thread to which this is a follow-up. (I did try "search"). Help please, someone.

It was deleted because it made too obvious a reference to bootlegs... or something along those lines.

This IS the Miles in Boston thread now!

[king ubu]

up - anyone has an idea where jazzdisco.org might have gotten their "early 1953" date from?