Amy Winehouse

[skeith]

I hope I did not sound like I was being too judgmental about Winehouse and the other artists she is being grouped with. I am not making a value judgment about people who take their own lives as somehow being bad or lesser folks. (And I would be the first to acknowledge that a number of Hendrix songs either talk about suicide or imply it). My only point is, and I followed his career when he was alive, that I did not get the impression that he was on a path that indicated he would take his own life which is the impression I got with Morrison, Joplin, etc. etc.

Edited July 26, 2011 by skeith

[.:.impossible]

Bradley Nowell was just over 27. Overdosed just before his band skyrocketed.

Shannon Hoon was also just 28.

[jazzbo]

I hope I did not sound like I was being too judgmental about Winehouse and the other artists she is being grouped with. I am not making a value judgment about people who take their own lives as somehow being bad or lesser folks. (And I would be the first to acknowledge that a number of Hendrix songs either talk about suicide or imply it). My only point is, and I followed his career when he was alive, that I did not get the impression that he was on a path that indicated he would take his own life which is the impression I got with Morrison, Joplin, etc. etc.

I agree with you s, I don't feel that Jimi was on a path that would have led him to take his own life. Nor necessarily Janis or Jim. It's as Shawn says, who are we to say? What I do feel is that Janis and Jim may have lost control of their willpower as far as being "fucked up" goes. Being in that state of being became such a retreat that they advanced way too far and accidents happen. Jimi too may have been in that mode for just too long, or his death may have had another cause, I've neither been convinced nor unconvinced completely with the possibility of foul play in his demise.

It's sad either way with all these artists. But. . . thousands are lost over and over again in this world. It's a real burden to be conscious for many, there's much pain and suffering, much joy and rhapsody, and many different responses to these stimulated states. Some lead to tragedy. Tragedy is part of the whole.

[jlhoots]

Gram Parsons

[mikeweil]

Never trust nobody over thirty ...

[sonnymax]

the Media has no fucking reason to say whether these people were self-destructive...not even the family really knows for sure. Only the individual knows. We "call" a lot of behavior "self-destructive", and that behavior very well may be a symptom of something else, but we don't have the right to speak for the individual, we don't know their motives.

People have a right to express their opinions about patterns of behavior that clearly jeopardize an individual's health, safety, and well-being. These behaviors are, in essence, destructive toward the self. You seem to be arguing that unless an individual makes a conscious decision to destroy themselves, and then communicates that intent to others, then we have no reason to suspect that they are being self-destructive. Most people who display these patterns of behavior are not fully aware of what they are doing, and are not consciously deciding to act in this manner. It's not the individual's intent or "motives" that are most important, it's their actions and the impact these behaviors have on their lives.

The term "manic depressive" gets thrown around too often. The term is very loose, there are many different types of bipolar disorder, it's no more descriptive a phrase than "jazz" is.

The fact that the general public uses terms like "manic depressive" loosely doesn't make the psychiatric diagnosis of Bipolar Disorder loose, vague or useless. Yes, there are several variations of what we consider to be Bipolar Disorder. However, each carries a set of specific symptoms to help distinguish one from another. Psychiatry isn't an exact science, but then neither is traditional medicine. I respect the fact that some of your opinions are based on your personal experiences, but I feel it's wrong for you to extrapolate in this manner and conclude that others don't know what they're talking about. Again, no disrespect intended, just a different perspective and contrary opinion.

[Shawn]

I don't believe I said anything about the diagnosis of bipolar disorder or that it's worthless.

What I was trying to say is that people "say" those things without really knowing what they are talking about. The media, the general public...they throw the term around without having a clue what it means or whether it even applies.

There was no negative intent to what I said.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Shawn

[Dave James]

Came across this interesting somewhat jazz related piece of Amy Winehouse lore this morning. Thought it was worth sharing.

This younger Winehouse had been nurtured both artistically and religiously by her family. Her parents and paternal grandmother, Cynthia, who once dated the legendary musician Ronnie Scott, raised her on a steady diet of jazz greats and soul singers from Billie Holiday to Ella Fitzgerald to Dinah Washington. It was also Cynthia who hosted weekly Friday night dinners. Her death in 2006 is said to have precipitated her granddaughter’s downward spiral.

[sidewinder]

Came across this interesting somewhat jazz related piece of Amy Winehouse lore this morning. Thought it was worth sharing.

This younger Winehouse had been nurtured both artistically and religiously by her family. Her parents and paternal grandmother, Cynthia, who once dated the legendary musician Ronnie Scott, raised her on a steady diet of jazz greats and soul singers from Billie Holiday to Ella Fitzgerald to Dinah Washington. It was also Cynthia who hosted weekly Friday night dinners. Her death in 2006 is said to have precipitated her granddaughters downward spiral.

Yes, Amy Winehouse had 'Cynthia' tatoo-ed on her upper right arm so she was obviously very influential with her.

There's quite a bit about Cynthia Gordon, plus a photo taken with Scott (age 16), in the Ronnie Scott biography written by Scott's daughter Rebecca.

Edited July 27, 2011 by sidewinder

[Larry Kart]

Interesting story about Helen Shapiro, semi-forgotten British pop star of the early '60s whom some have compared to Winehouse:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576433814108614294.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Check her out (lots more clips on YouTube):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUZNyBtSa8&feature=related

[Larry Kart]

Have to add this one by Shapiro:

[J.A.W.]

Interesting story about Helen Shapiro, semi-forgotten British pop star of the early '60s whom some have compared to Winehouse:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576433814108614294.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

I remember her very well, she had one hit after another in the U.K. in the early 1960s. She was a great singer, she really stood out among other British pop singers of the pre-Beatles era. Some time ago I saw an interview with her, I think it was on the BBC.

Edited July 27, 2011 by J.A.W.

[JSngry]

That Helen Shapiro chick sounded more like a teenaged boy than Wayne Newton did a teenaged girl. A duet would have been confusing as hell for most, although no doubt a secret wet dream for those who would have such things about such things.

The thing that caught my eye (and stuck in it) was that she had the original on "It's My Party". This clips allows us to finally credit the synergistic genius of the Leslie Gore/Quincy Jones partnership, becaus although Ms. Shapiro give the song a competent reading, Q & Gore snap the shit outta it, and that, Dear Friends, is what that song needs to get itself right and tight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxS3zhDv5AU

Edited July 28, 2011 by JSngry

[JSngry]

Snappin' dat record ass all up and in, goin' HAM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESm7nfPM4qo

And finally, to come full circle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07IAeWA6lUk&feature=related

[sidewinder]

Interesting story about Helen Shapiro, semi-forgotten British pop star of the early '60s whom some have compared to Winehouse:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303544604576433814108614294.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

I remember her very well, she had one hit after another in the U.K. in the early 1960s. She was a great singer, she really stood out among other British pop singers of the pre-Beatles era. Some time ago I saw an interview with her, I think it was on the BBC.

She did quite a bit of touring with Humphrey Lyttleton's band from the 1980s onwards and switched to a much jazzier style.

I always thought Whinehouse was more like Alma Cogan than Helen Shapiro though.

[Larry Kart]

I agree about "It's My Party," Jim, but those other clips of the young Shapiro I posted reveal her to be IMO a terrific, soulful singer -- and a sexy one, too, without bringing to bear any thoughts of androgany. YMMV.

[JSngry]

Mileage is good on the ability front, but does vary on the "feminine"-quality of the timbre of her voice, that first cut in particular...maybe it's the stark contrast between the sound and the appearance, but...a female equivalent of the young Wayne Newton was definitely what came to mind, and still after a re-listen this morning. Not that that's a bad thing, just that...it is what it is.

OTOH, I think we can all agree that whatever sterling moments Ms. Winehouse might have had, "It's My Party" was not among them. Good GOD that sucks!

[ejp626]

OTOH, I think we can all agree that whatever sterling moments Ms. Winehouse might have had, "It's My Party" was not among them. Good GOD that sucks!

I was wondering about that. It sounded as if she might well have been under the influence even then. Certainly was hard to see what the fuss was all about, going from that track.

[Larry Kart]

Mileage is good on the ability front, but does vary on the "feminine"-quality of the timbre of her voice, that first cut in particular...maybe it's the stark contrast between the sound and the appearance, but...a female equivalent of the young Wayne Newton was definitely what came to mind, and still after a re-listen this morning. Not that that's a bad thing, just that...it is what it is.

On that cut the title phrase "When times look bad for you ... look over your shoulder" has a very feminine "throb" to it IMO. If there's anything odd about Shapiro's voice, it's that it does sound mature for her age, but not "boyish" IMO. In fact, among the several reasons her "It's My Party" doesn't compare to Lesley Gore's is that the digging-in-your-toe petulance (if that's the right word) of the song fits the suburban American girl that Gore was but not the relatively grown-up product of tough East End London that Shapiro was.

"Gore was ... raised in Tenafly, New Jersey, in a Jewish family. Her father, Leo Gore, was a wealthy manufacturer of children's clothes and swimwear...."

[JSngry]

On that cut the title phrase "When times look bad for you ... look over your shoulder" has a very feminine "throb" to it IMO. If there's anything odd about Shapiro's voice, it's that it does sound mature for her age, but not "boyish" IMO.

I'm sure we bring different backgrounds to this, so take this for what it is and/or isn't worth, but I had massive, immersive, exposure to British Invasion AM Pop pretty much nonstop thoughout 1964, and no, she doesn't necessarily sound "boyish" to my ears, but she doesn't sounf\d "feminine" either, at least not relative to what that word conjures in my mind relative to the time and place from whence it issued. Wayne Newton in those days didn't really sound "girlish" but he didn't sound "masculine" either.

I like that song and that record very much, actually. That era of British pop had some great sounding records, really wonderful rich & deep reverb that created a sound sub-world unto itself (not sure if it was a question of studios or boards or a combination, or what, exactly, but I love the sound of those records, a good song/performance is really just icing on the cake for me), and this is a prime example. I just don't immediately hear it as being "sung by a girl", which is neither here nor there, just somewhere else.

[J.A.W.]

I always thought Whinehouse was more like Alma Cogan than Helen Shapiro though.

Ah yes, Alma Cogan; another singer who died way too young - she was 34 when she died in 1966. She recorded quite a few songs that didn't really suit her in my view, but she was a great singer. Watched the BBC documentary about her several times.

[Dave James]

Big fan of this one from Shapiro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sluub4nv9Y0

Also, an O.K. cover of Mary Wells' My Guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRifMjB91Ng&feature=related

Edited July 31, 2011 by Dave James

[Dave James]

I always thought Whinehouse was more like Alma Cogan than Helen Shapiro though.

Ah yes, Alma Cogan; another singer who died way too young - she was 34 when she died in 1966. She recorded quite a few songs that didn't really suit her in my view, but she was a great singer. Watched the BBC documentary about her several times.

Certainly more visually than vocally. In some of the pix that accompany this video, all you'd have to do is overlay the Winehouse eye shadow and you'd have more than a passing similarity. Some of Cogan's dresses also remind me of the outfits AW would wear on occasion. One has to wonder, given the developmental influence her father, Mitch, had on her, if she might not have been familiar with the likes of an Amy Cogan

[fasstrack]

The thing that caught my eye (and stuck in it) was that she had the original on "It's My Party". This clips allows us to finally credit the synergistic genius of the Leslie Gore/Quincy Jones partnership, becaus although Ms. Shapiro give the song a competent reading, Q & Gore snap the shit outta it, and that, Dear Friends, is what that song needs to get itself right and tight.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, Jim, and guys and gals, but I remember Leslie Gore's version of that song very well. It was part of the soundtrack of my own youth. I appreciate the appeal of it to suburban teenage girls' angst and it definitely did resonate. But as a pop song it's not even close to first-rate IMO. Very boilerplate, with cookie-cutter arpeggios spelled out all through the melody. Compared to a song like You Really Got a Hold on Me, from roughly the same period (and dealing with the same subject matter, but musically and lyrically so much better in every way) it's not anywhere near the 'hood. It's just irritating.

As far as Lesley Gore's performance, I don't want to be too rough on a teenager. The emotion was there for sure and I appreciate that, but her voice doesn't knock me out. It's cloying and loud. The whole production lacks any subtlety, and comes off rather whitebread to me, cliched whitebread, at that. I think it might have been music of this type that drove me eventually into the loving arms of jazz. And if you interpret this statement as anti-pop, you are absolutely barking up the wrong tree. I grew up on pop, white and black, and R&B. There are some pretty deep roots there, and much affection. I mean this record in particular, and others like it. Even though Quincy and cast brought it off letter-perfect. No problem there. Agreed it had 'snap' to spare. Anyone could hear that, I think.

I'll agree with this: Quincy had and has, among his other many talents, a phenomenal ear for trendy sounds. He hears what's in the air and knows how to get it down on score paper and out of the players. An exceptional arranger of popular material, he deserves a lot the credit IMO for the success of this record. I'm not saying Leslie Gore didn't have something, though it may not appeal to me. She wasn't sitting on her hands, and the message was real to those kids. But Quincy is the one who took a third rate song and nailed sound that got into everyone's head. And, coming off a tour that nearly bankrupted him, it was a career-saver.

BTW: great discussion, everyone

[Larry Kart]

The story behind the Gore recording of "It's My Party" is Byzantine in its complexity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_My_Party_(song)

BTW, the "hook" of the song IMO is not so much the title phrase but the harmonic role played by the descending note that the words "Johnny" and "walked" fall on in the phrases "Nobody knows where my Johnny has gone..." and "Judy and Johnny just walked through the door..."