GA Russell Posted April 12, 2011 Author Report Posted April 12, 2011 The Rule cited was #7: "7) We do not allow sharing, trading, or linking copyrighted material that is being offered illegally, including bootlegs." If the Brubeck material is in the public domain in Europe, is it OK to link to a European retailer? Quote
Big Wheel Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) OK I need to ask this now - is anyone claiming this release is illegal? It isn't, so why shouldn't this be linked? Once the material is out of copyright Sony have no right to authorise it or otherwise, because it does not belong to them. At all. Why, even, would it be our job here to police things that even Sony cannot be bothered about? This. What is the outcome that this rule is attempting to prevent? We're supposed to believe that Sony isn't bringing its legal muscle to bear against Amazon.com, a $30 billion corporation, but it's going to start sending Jim Alfredson mean C&D letters if one of us links to the product's page? I can see how trading/sharing boots introduces a level of legal liability into the mix that Jim might not be comfortable with, but merely linking to reputable retailers should not be proactively monitored and edited. How do the moderators know what is legally kosher and what isn't? Is there an Organissimo Board General Counsel that is advising them on these matters? And if the idea is simply that it's immoral for board members to buy gray market records and we want to prevent them from doing so...then we probably need to ban talking about gray market records, period. Because discussing bootlegs probably leads to a lot more sales than linking to them. FWIW, I have never bought a bootleg, outside of a session or two that Sue Mingus whines about but is too inept to ever release. But this rule and the overall level of interference from moderators is getting out of hand. Edited April 12, 2011 by Big Wheel Quote
king ubu Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 The Rule cited was #7: "7) We do not allow sharing, trading, or linking copyrighted material that is being offered illegally, including bootlegs." If the Brubeck material is in the public domain in Europe, is it OK to link to a European retailer? Only if you apply that special filter that makes it impossible for americans to view the link... if you actually buy these things from yurp, I guess you'd be doing the illegal thing. If you buy them from US vendors, I guess they'd cut you some slack since you acted in good belief... in short: no links allowed, no matter how you turn it. Quote
Big Wheel Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 The Rule cited was #7: "7) We do not allow sharing, trading, or linking copyrighted material that is being offered illegally, including bootlegs." If the Brubeck material is in the public domain in Europe, is it OK to link to a European retailer? Only if you apply that special filter that makes it impossible for americans to view the link... if you actually buy these things from yurp, I guess you'd be doing the illegal thing. If you buy them from US vendors, I guess they'd cut you some slack since you acted in good belief... in short: no links allowed, no matter how you turn it. Who is this "they" you speak of? What next, are we going to ban all links to breweries in the "What are you drinking right now" thread? Heavens to Betsy, somewhere an Iranian, Afghan, or Kuwaiti might click it and that would be <gasp> ILLEGAL! To say nothing of what the Indonesian authorities think of "Sexiest album covers".... Quote
Daniel A Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 I have no problem with the moderating. These reissues may be legal in some countries, illegal in others; either way, they are easy enough to find even without direct links from here. While I don't think it would matter too much to allow links, I have sympathy for the view of the owner of these forums from a moral point of view. I can't say that I worry a lot about the sales figures of companies who are never doing anything else than copying the work of others. Quote
J.A.W. Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 OK I need to ask this now - is anyone claiming this release is illegal? It isn't, so why shouldn't this be linked? Once the material is out of copyright Sony have no right to authorise it or otherwise, because it does not belong to them. At all. Why, even, would it be our job here to police things that even Sony cannot be bothered about? Releases like the Brubeck box are not illegal in the European Union under its current copyright laws, but in the United States with its different copyright laws they are, and since this board is based in the United States Jim, as the owner of the board, can be held responsible for allowing links to releases that are unauthorized in the United States and that's a risk we don't want to take. And by the way, since the material in the Brubeck box is still copyrighted in the United States Concord (Fantasy) and Sony have every right to authorize it or otherwise as far as the United States is concerned. Quote
medjuck Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) Hans says that the Brubeck box is unauthorized. I just assumed that everything carried by Amazon is legit. Amazon and the iTunes store have been pretty sloppy about this. They should hire Sue Mingus. I don't know why the bigger labels haven't complained. Someone did sue Nexus for selling in The States but otherwise I haven't read anything about labels going after grey market sellers. Edited April 12, 2011 by medjuck Quote
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 These reissues may be legal in some countries, illegal in others; either way, they are easy enough to find even without direct links from here. Quote
Fer Urbina Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 I don't know why the bigger labels haven't complained. Probably because the big corporations will not lose enough money due to those reissues. Given EMI's situation and The Beatles catalogue so close to begin becoming public domain, it'll be interesting how much pressure they put on the EU to change the law. Cliff Richard et al tried and failed. In any case the recorded music business is changing so fast that who knows what'll happen. And jazz is tiny in that big scheme of things. F PS FWIW mechanical rights expire after 50 years in the EU. Composers' rights and rights on photographs/images/album covers last longer, although these (the rights on photographs) are systematically ignored. Quote
Tom in RI Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 Amazon is presently (April 5, 2011) offering the Nat Cole Hip-O Select 3-CD boxed set for $14.60. Riffin': The Decca, JATP, Keynote, and Mercury Recordings Thanks for the heads up on this one, free two day shipping with Amazon Prime to boot. My copy came today. Quote
David Ayers Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Composers' rights and rights on photographs/images/album covers last longer, although these (the rights on photographs) are systematically ignored. The rights on photographs are sytematically ignored on this board too! Get furious everybody!! Seriously, in fact as I pointed out in another thread cover images are now often doctored so as to resemble originals without infringing copyright, so this issue has plainly come up somehow and in some context. As for performing rights, of course the so-called gray labels make a point of saying they have paid that, and maybe they have. In relation to both those issues (of disfigured quotation and avoiding paying composers) it is worth remembering that one reason the tunes on so many hard bop style LPs are so uh unmemorable is that they are hastily composed nothings designed to fit a famous chord sequence, thus avoiding royalties to the composer and earning them for the new 'composer'. Of course why *this* should be is another whole question in the history of copyright, but it is that history people here get bent out of shape about. And of course no-one here has yet turned their righteous anger on Charlie Parker or Lee Morgan for ripping off George Gershwin with their grey market recompositions... Quote
David Ayers Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 OK I need to ask this now - is anyone claiming this release is illegal? It isn't, so why shouldn't this be linked? Once the material is out of copyright Sony have no right to authorise it or otherwise, because it does not belong to them. At all. Why, even, would it be our job here to police things that even Sony cannot be bothered about? Releases like the Brubeck box are not illegal in the European Union under its current copyright laws, but in the United States with its different copyright laws they are, and since this board is based in the United States Jim, as the owner of the board, can be held responsible for allowing links to releases that are unauthorized in the United States and that's a risk we don't want to take. And by the way, since the material in the Brubeck box is still copyrighted in the United States Concord (Fantasy) and Sony have every right to authorize it or otherwise as far as the United States is concerned. PS yes Hans I know this is the policy - I am asking for a rethink - this is just not the same as using the board to link to downloads/torrents. Quote
Daniel A Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Composers' rights and rights on photographs/images/album covers last longer, although these (the rights on photographs) are systematically ignored. The rights on photographs are sytematically ignored on this board too! Get furious everybody!! Seriously, in fact as I pointed out in another thread cover images are now often doctored so as to resemble originals without infringing copyright, so this issue has plainly come up somehow and in some context. As for performing rights, of course the so-called gray labels make a point of saying they have paid that, and maybe they have. In relation to both those issues (of disfigured quotation and avoiding paying composers) it is worth remembering that one reason the tunes on so many hard bop style LPs are so uh unmemorable is that they are hastily composed nothings designed to fit a famous chord sequence, thus avoiding royalties to the composer and earning them for the new 'composer'. Of course why *this* should be is another whole question in the history of copyright, but it is that history people here get bent out of shape about. And of course no-one here has yet turned their righteous anger on Charlie Parker or Lee Morgan for ripping off George Gershwin with their grey market recompositions... I don't think the fact that bad art is protected by copyright is enough to quash the IP laws. Quote
king ubu Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Hans says that the Brubeck box is unauthorized. I just assumed that everything carried by Amazon is legit. Amazon and the iTunes store have been pretty sloppy about this. They should hire Sue Mingus. I don't know why the bigger labels haven't complained. They would quickly close shop then, I guess... They, this time, being the Amazon and iTunes stores. They, in the previous post, being the RIAA that's going to sue y'all for buying these illegal releases Quote
Big Wheel Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 They, in the previous post, being the RIAA that's going to sue y'all for buying these illegal releases Please cite a single legal case where the RIAA or any record label sued consumers for legal purchases of gray market/parallel imports goods at mass-market retailers, as opposed to piracy via filesharing. It's not even clear that it's illegal to sell parallel imports of intellectual property goods, let alone buy them. In Costco v. Omega, did Omega go after everyone who bought a European-market Omega watch at an American Costco? Quote
king ubu Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Sorry if my irony was lost... guess I should add more smilies, then. Quote
alankin Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Isaac Stern - Life in Music IV (Sony, 12 CDs)for $55 at Popmarket. Today only: http://www.popmarket.com/details/5747700 Quote
king ubu Posted April 14, 2011 Report Posted April 14, 2011 Btw, the Nat Cole Hip-O arrived yesterday - thanks again for the recommendation, it does look splendid, and there seems to be enough new music for me, after all! Quote
Fer Urbina Posted April 14, 2011 Report Posted April 14, 2011 Mine (Nat Cole Hip-O) arrived this morning. Thanks again, Edward! F Quote
Bigshot Posted April 16, 2011 Report Posted April 16, 2011 There are US releases that are not authorized for sale in other countries. If links to releases that are not authorized for sale in the US are forbidden, shouldn't releases that are not authorized for sale in Europe be forbidden too? Quote
Edward Posted April 16, 2011 Report Posted April 16, 2011 Mine (Nat Cole Hip-O) arrived this morning. Thanks again, Edward! F You are all very welcome. It shows that it pays to maintain (and regularly check) a wishlist on Amazon. By the way, do any of you have any complaint regarding the condition of the Nat Cole set that you received? In regard to the one that was delivered to me, the heavy paper slipcover sleeve was torn on the spine and the first and third discs were scratched. I realize that the boxed set design of the Hip-O Select sets leave a lot to be desired, but I did not face these problems with the other four sets that I have purchased. Nevertheless, I do not want to spend the time returning the set only to receive a similarly defective one. Quote
Fer Urbina Posted April 16, 2011 Report Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) By the way, do any of you have any complaint regarding the condition of the Nat Cole set that you received? In regard to the one that was delivered to me, the heavy paper slipcover sleeve was torn on the spine and the first and third discs were scratched. Sorry to hear that. Mine was spotless. F Edited April 16, 2011 by Fer Urbina Quote
Edward Posted April 17, 2011 Report Posted April 17, 2011 Thanks for the feedback. I shall be initiating a return/exchange with Amazon tomorrow. Quote
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