2010-2011 Hot Stove Thread

[Quincy]

Quincy's "evidence" still does not eliminate the real cause of higher ticket prices: Player salary.

Sources:Increased ticket prices

Stadium size vs increases

Your 2nd linked article begins " Baseball fans love to blame players' multi-million dollar salaries for rising ticket prices. They're wrong."

[Tim McG]

Quincy's "evidence" still does not eliminate the real cause of higher ticket prices: Player salary.

Sources:Increased ticket prices

Stadium size vs increases

Your 2nd linked article begins " Baseball fans love to blame players' multi-million dollar salaries for rising ticket prices. They're wrong."

And it ends with:

"When you have more sellouts, there's a perception of scarcity, people are more likely to buy early, such as season ticket plans or advance ticket sales," he said. "That's the heart of psychology of ticket buying. If they feel they can always walk up and buy tickets, that's a bad thing for the team."

It is why I posted the link, Quincy. So you could get a better understanding of the cause. There is no doubting salary drives up the cost to see a game. You said it has nothing to do with it. This article only shows what the owners are doing to keep up with those costs and turn a profit and satisfy their investors. In short, this is the application, not theory. If, one might posit, player salary has nothing to do with higher ticket prices then why would there be this need to drive up revenue through a manipulation of the market? Why, then, did salary drive up ticket costs for the many decades before this new wrinkle? Besides, it is an opinion piece, not a factual reporting. Which brings me back to my original point.

Maybe you should read the entire article, eh?

Like I said, the "expert" is manipulating the market, but does not allow for the obvious cause: Player salary. Further, this is an article from four years ago. Player salaries have bumped up the cost of ticket prices since the 70s. This idea of shrinking the stadiums in order to manipulate higher ticket prices is a relatively new one and, as I have stated numerous times, is not the sole cause of higer ticket prices, concessions, sports items, etc, ad nauseum.

Instead trying to find fault, I recommend trying to find the reasons.

Edited November 29, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Dave James]

Negotiations between the Yankees and Derek Jeter are at a standstill until Jeter and his agent, Casey Close, "drink the reality potion," according to a source close to the negotiations.

This is getting nastier by the minute. Even as a Yankee fan, I can't say this isn't interesting. Here's a team that has thrown around money like the federal government all of a sudden becoming fiscally responsible. On the other side lives an ego that's as big as all outdoors. The interesting thing is that when Jeter and Casey Close negotiated his last contract, they did so on the basis of Jeter's on-field contribution to the Yankees. Now that Jeter is 37 years old, their demands are based not on what he does on the field, but what he means to the Yankee's legacy. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. There are rumors floating around that the Giants have contacted Close who, interestingly enough, is also the agent for Buster Posey. Further, Brian Sabean, the Giants GM, is the guy who signed Jeter for the Yanks back in the early '90's. Can you even imagine Jeter wearing someone else's uniform?

[JSngry]

Another unlikely (from both ends) but "interesting" scenario of the type only possible in the Hot Stove League...given Jeter's Michigan roots & the Tigers' apparently big budget...Jeter - Back To The Roots...

Yeah, I know, baseball ain't the music biz. But old habits die hard.

[Tim McG]

Another unlikely (from both ends) but "interesting" scenario of the type only possible in the Hot Stove League...given Jeter's Michigan roots & the Tigers' apparently big budget...Jeter - Back To The Roots...

Yeah, I know, baseball ain't the music biz. But old habits die hard.

True dat.

But I'm willing to bet the ranch this is all just fo' sho'.

The Steinbrenners will, as per usual, dump a shitload of money on him. Jeter stays.

[PHILLYQ]

If, and this is a huge if, Jeter leaves the Yanks he would at best get a contract of two years at about $15mil, and only from a team with deep pockets that can afford to blow that kind of $$. Any takers out there? I didn't think so...

[Tim McG]

If, and this is a huge if, Jeter leaves the Yanks he would at best get a contract of two years at about $15mil, and only from a team with deep pockets that can afford to blow that kind of $$. Any takers out there? I didn't think so...

Exactly.

Jeter stays.

Edited November 30, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Jazzmoose]

And it ends with:

"When you have more sellouts, there's a perception of scarcity, people are more likely to buy early, such as season ticket plans or advance ticket sales," he said. "That's the heart of psychology of ticket buying. If they feel they can always walk up and buy tickets, that's a bad thing for the team."

It is why I posted the link, Quincy. So you could get a better understanding of the cause. There is no doubting salary drives up the cost to see a game. You said it has nothing to do with it. This article only shows what the owners are doing to keep up with those costs and turn a profit and satisfy their investors. In short, this is the application, not theory. If, one might posit, player salary has nothing to do with higher ticket prices then why would there be this need to drive up revenue through a manipulation of the market? Why, then, did salary drive up ticket costs for the many decades before this new wrinkle? Besides, it is an opinion piece, not a factual reporting. Which brings me back to my original point.

Maybe you should read the entire article, eh?

Like I said, the "expert" is manipulating the market, but does not allow for the obvious cause: Player salary. Further, this is an article from four years ago. Player salaries have bumped up the cost of ticket prices since the 70s. This idea of shrinking the stadiums in order to manipulate higher ticket prices is a relatively new one and, as I have stated numerous times, is not the sole cause of higer ticket prices, concessions, sports items, etc, ad nauseum.

Instead trying to find fault, I recommend trying to find the reasons.

Either your humor is too subtle for me, or you're just completely clueless...

[ghost of miles]

Negotiations between the Yankees and Derek Jeter are at a standstill until Jeter and his agent, Casey Close, "drink the reality potion," according to a source close to the negotiations.

This is getting nastier by the minute. Even as a Yankee fan, I can't say this isn't interesting. Here's a team that has thrown around money like the federal government all of a sudden becoming fiscally responsible. On the other side lives an ego that's as big as all outdoors. The interesting thing is that when Jeter and Casey Close negotiated his last contract, they did so on the basis of Jeter's on-field contribution to the Yankees. Now that Jeter is 37 years old, their demands are based not on what he does on the field, but what he means to the Yankee's legacy. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. There are rumors floating around that the Giants have contacted Close who, interestingly enough, is also the agent for Buster Posey. Further, Brian Sabean, the Giants GM, is the guy who signed Jeter for the Yanks back in the early '90's. Can you even imagine Jeter wearing someone else's uniform?

Yes, it's become quite the soap opera, hasn't it? Not handled particularly well by either side, IMO, though I don't think it's going to put any kind of significant dent in Jeter's "legacy," or what-have-you... more like a Joe DiMaggio-style footnote. Truth be told, I've actually moved against the tide and become a bit more sympathetic to Jeter in recent days; although his salary position is undoubtedly excessive, I think the front office has come dangerously close to trashing the team's most iconic player in decades. Yes, 4 yrs/70-75 million will be much more than he's "objectively" worth, but I think they should pay it to him. (And if you're a Yankee-hater, don't you want that outcome anyway? ) To me, it's worth it to see him finish his career as a Yankee without too much more acrimony. The notion that he has nowhere else to go may be true to a large extent, but the coupled notion that therefore NY doesn't have to pay him as well as A.J. Burnett next season ( ) is galling. Again, they're now trying to compensate for spending way too much money on other players in recent years...but as others have pointed out, starting to crack the fiscal whip with Jeter as your first target (OK, second, I suppose, after Johnny Damon this past year) seems a bit much. Another alternative might be to keep the offer at three years, but up it to $60 million. There's a rumor that the Yankees might be willing to go up to 3 yrs/$50 million, but no more than that.

I love the Yankees' team and their players, not their front office, which does tend to shove its aging stars out the door (not like other teams don't do this as well, though). But I'd also add that the picture of the Yankees' budget situation is a bit more complex than what the media offers--see this analysis and especially Money to burn?. Yes, the front office's pockets are undoubtedly somewhat elastic, but perhaps not to the extent that they have been in the past. My pretty-obvious guess is that they're trying to leave as much room as possible for a fat offer to Cliff Lee. Javy's salary is now off the books, which frees up $11 million, and Nick Johnson's departure gives them another $5 million to add elsewhere. I'd wager that all of that "freed" payroll is earmarked for Cliff Lee, but they'll need more than $16 million a year to sign him, that's for sure.

Dave: while I am indeed perversely tracking the Jeter situation, it's also making me already begin to long for spring and actual baseball again. Went back tonight and watched some of my favorite highlights from the past several seasons... and here winter's barely begun. Here's hoping the Core 4 stays intact for one more trip around the sun.

Edited November 30, 2010 by ghost of miles

[Brad]

I don't agree that the Yankees haven't handled it well. The one who seem to be making the quixotic statements is Jeter's agents. We all seem to think the Yankees should pay him this or that but it's easy to hand out money when it's not yours. The Yankees have paid umpteen amounts of money in the past because of his age and his future performance prospects. They're looking at that through the same eyes again and $15 million for a 36 year old ss, with diminishing tools, is not too shabby.

The problem is he would like to get something like Arod money, which isn't going to happen, and he's boxed himself in, with the Yankees probably not budging, because they hold all the marbles. As a face saving measure I could see them adding a fourth year as an option. He would have to come back with a competing offer for them to budge. Until then...

[Dan Gould]

The obvious failure here is by Jeter and his advisers accepting a ten year contract leaving him a free agent heading into his age-37 season. A little foresight would have recognized that a six or seven year deal would have left him looking for another contract at an age when his skill erosion would have still been presumed instead of demonstrable. Another seven-year, big money deal and he makes the same money over time without all the agita, because the second contract would have been one where fans knew he was signed beyond his useful playing days and would only worry about how many years beyond. Now they are worried that any contract length consists entirely of not-very-useful decline years.

[JSngry]

(And if you're a Yankee-hater, don't you want that outcome anyway? )

Actually yeah, becuase I still think it's way cool for player, especially iconic players, to go start-to-finish with the same team, even if that team is the Wall Street Yankees!

But seriously, yeah, I remember how weird/sad/wrong it was with Mays as a Met, Aaron as a Brewer, etc. Put the management's money where it's mouth has been all these years about "true Yankee" and all that crap. Otherwise the already transparent hype just sickens as it thickens.

Give the guy his money with the understanding that this is it, no more. But give the guy his money.

[Tim McG]

And it ends with:

"When you have more sellouts, there's a perception of scarcity, people are more likely to buy early, such as season ticket plans or advance ticket sales," he said. "That's the heart of psychology of ticket buying. If they feel they can always walk up and buy tickets, that's a bad thing for the team."

It is why I posted the link, Quincy. So you could get a better understanding of the cause. There is no doubting salary drives up the cost to see a game. You said it has nothing to do with it. This article only shows what the owners are doing to keep up with those costs and turn a profit and satisfy their investors. In short, this is the application, not theory. If, one might posit, player salary has nothing to do with higher ticket prices then why would there be this need to drive up revenue through a manipulation of the market? Why, then, did salary drive up ticket costs for the many decades before this new wrinkle? Besides, it is an opinion piece, not a factual reporting. Which brings me back to my original point.

Maybe you should read the entire article, eh?

Like I said, the "expert" is manipulating the market, but does not allow for the obvious cause: Player salary. Further, this is an article from four years ago. Player salaries have bumped up the cost of ticket prices since the 70s. This idea of shrinking the stadiums in order to manipulate higher ticket prices is a relatively new one and, as I have stated numerous times, is not the sole cause of higer ticket prices, concessions, sports items, etc, ad nauseum.

Instead trying to find fault, I recommend trying to find the reasons.

Either your humor is too subtle for me, or you're just completely clueless...

Neither.

My suggestion? Go back and read from the beginning of the exchange.

[ghost of miles]

Sports Illustrated 'sTom Verducci has a column up comparing the Yankees' approach to Jeter unfavorably with the Orioles' approach to Cal Ripken at roughly the same age/career point.

Jsngry, I meant it only in the sense that strategically speaking, no, it's not a good idea to sign Jeter for another 4 years at a very high rate of pay-so it would be good news for AL East and other foes if they did so. But I don't care, even if it impedes the Yankees' performance to some extent in the next several years... I think Jeter needs to end his days with NY and end them relatively happily. He needs to compromise quite a bit on his contract demands, but the front office needs to do some compromising as well. 3/60 million or 4/70 million is still what strikes me as a final middle ground, but I'm not sure either side's inclined to move that far.

Question for Dan: is there anybody on the FA market you want to see Boston pursue? Carl Crawford? Jayson Werth?

Edited November 30, 2010 by J.A.W.

[Tim McG]

Another unlikely (from both ends) but "interesting" scenario of the type only possible in the Hot Stove League...given Jeter's Michigan roots & the Tigers' apparently big budget...Jeter - Back To The Roots...

Yeah, I know, baseball ain't the music biz. But old habits die hard.

True dat.

But I'm willing to bet the ranch this is all just fo' sho'.

The Steinbrenners will, as per usual, dump a shitload of money on him. Jeter stays.

OTOH...Uribe just signed with the Dodgers. That opens up a spot at SS.....dare I even hope?

[Dan Gould]

Question for Dan: is there anybody on the FA market you want to see Boston pursue? Carl Crawford? Jayson Werth?

None of them excite me though I guess that if they signed Crawford I could manage to convince myself its an exciting addition (especially since Ellsbury is likely to be gone fairly soon). But I have a sneaky suspicion/hope that the big splash will be getting Adrian Gonzalez from San Diego. Everyone would forget Beltre leaving with Gonzalez and Youk manning the corners, and they'd finally do something about missing out on Mrs. Leigh Teixeira.

[BERIGAN]

Sports Illustrated 'sTom Verducci has a column up comparing the Yankees' approach to Jeter unfavorably with the Orioles' approach to Cal Ripken at roughly the same age/career point.

Jsngry, I meant it only in the sense that strategically speaking, no, it's not a good idea to sign Jeter for another 4 years at a very high rate of pay-so it would be good news for AL East and other foes if they did so. But I don't care, even if it impedes the Yankees' performance to some extent in the next several years... I think Jeter needs to end his days with NY and end them relatively happily. He needs to compromise quite a bit on his contract demands, but the front office needs to do some compromising as well. 3/60 million or 4/70 million is still what strikes me as a final middle ground, but I'm not sure either side's inclined to move that far.

Question for Dan: is there anybody on the FA market you want to see Boston pursue? Carl Crawford? Jayson Werth?

Ghost, and other Yankee fans...I am not a Yankee fan, as you can imagine, but the Yankees have been classless in the handling of the whole situation. They could have kept out of the media, but haven't. If you give A-Rod a ridiculous contract, why don't you give Jeter, who has been there his whole career, say 4 years??? His hips aren't wrecked from Roids, either...

And if they don't give Mo 2 years, after repeatedly risking his career going longer than just about any closer does, year after year...he should jump ship too.

Edited December 1, 2010 by BERIGAN

[Noj]

As I understand it the Yanks are paying A-Rod less than Jeter already, since Texas is still paying a bunch of A-Rod's salary. The deal on the table for Jeter would already make him the highest paid infielder in MLB, and he won't get more from another team. His numbers are declining, he shouldn't expect superstar money.

[papsrus]

In the category of "shortstops not named Jeter," there's talk that the Rays are shopping Bartlett around as they look for some bullpen arms. He's likely to get in excess of $5 mill for this year in arbitration, then on to free agency next season.

Interested parties apparently include the Cardinals, Giants and Orioles, with the Padres, Pirates and Reds possibly in the mix.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming -- "The Days Of Our Jeter."

[papsrus]

Totally Fake Baseball Cards

[Dan Gould]

As I understand it the Yanks are paying A-Rod less than Jeter already, since Texas is still paying a bunch of A-Rod's salary.

How many times do I have to point out that A-Rod opted out of his contract and the Yankees signed him as a free agent after the 2007 season?

From Cot's Baseball Contracts:

# 10 years/$275M (2008-17)

* re-signed by Yankees as a free agent 12/13/07

* $10M signing bonus ($2M paid upon approval, $1M paid each Jan. 15, 2009-2013, $3M paid Jan. 15, 2014)

* 08:$27M, 09:$32M, 10:$32M, 11:$31M, 12:$29M, 13:$28M, 14:$25M, 15:$21M, 16:$20M, 17:$20M

* $30M marketing agreement based on home run milestones ($6M each for reaching 660, 714, 755 and tying and breaking major league HR record)

* no-trade protection

* perks: may purchase 4 best available season tickets for 2008, 4 Legends Suite or comparable season tickets for 2009-17

* Texas obligated to fund $9M as part of deferred compensation provision in previous contract (to be paid with interest in $3M increments in 2008, 2009 & 2010)

Texas pays NOTHING to A-Rod at all, and only paid $3 million a year in deferred compensation the past three seasons, which, being deferred, are not part of the $27 million salary in 2008 or the $32 million salary in 2009 or 2010.

And its done now.

Ever dollar A-Rod earns is from the Yankees.

[Dave James]

Stop the insanity. What in the world were they thinking? Were the Red Sox willing to pay this kind of money? Did they force the Yankees to meet or beat their offer? I can't believe how much they're paying this guy. He's already a stiff. By the time he's 42 years old, all he'll be doing is taking up a roster spot and keeping the bench warm for the guys who are playing.

[PHILLYQ]

Stop the insanity. What in the world were they thinking? Were the Red Sox willing to pay this kind of money? Did they force the Yankees to meet or beat their offer? I can't believe how much they're paying this guy. He's already a stiff. By the time he's 42 years old, all he'll be doing is taking up a roster spot and keeping the bench warm for the guys who are playing.

I find it funny how many people point at A-rod when talking about Jeter. Because the Yanks made a colossal error, they should repeat it???!!!

[Tim McG]

Miguel Tejada signed with the Giants for a one-year deal worth $6.5 Million.

At 35, I have to wonder how much production potential he has left.

[BERIGAN]

Stop the insanity. What in the world were they thinking? Were the Red Sox willing to pay this kind of money? Did they force the Yankees to meet or beat their offer? I can't believe how much they're paying this guy. He's already a stiff. By the time he's 42 years old, all he'll be doing is taking up a roster spot and keeping the bench warm for the guys who are playing.

I find it funny how many people point at A-rod when talking about Jeter. Because the Yanks made a colossal error, they should repeat it???!!!

Not necessarily, but to give the captain , the player who led them to so many W.S. victories, a shorter, lesser contract...than A-Rod...naturally he would expect to get something similar, at least in years if not money...