2010-2011 Hot Stove Thread

[ghost of miles]

  On 12/13/2010 at 11:24 PM, JSngry said:

  On 12/13/2010 at 10:12 PM, ghost of miles said:

..players that to me symbolize the best of what the Yankees or any great baseball teams are about. Not owners and front-office execs.

Yeah, so you think it's cool that there's one "team" that can sit there and look at the rest of it's peers and say "You guys can have whatever you want - unless we really, really want it, in which case, fuck you, you don't have a chance, we can shit all over you if we need to, and you better believe we will, so get the fuck out of our way"?

Where did I ever say anything like this or indicate that I believe it? Hell, it's not even all that true... if so Brian Cashman would've offered Lee 8 years and 200 million by now. They're certainly not afraid to bid strongly for a player they want, but I didn't realize that that's now some kind of cardinal sin. I don't hear any whining by Cashman or the execs in the press, and I doubt that you will, either. They'll start looking at other options to try to bolster the rotation, like any other baseball team that looks to improve.

  Quote

If it was anybody but the Yankees in anything besides baseball, you'd be righteously ranting against such a thing, as well you should be. But it's not, so all you can offer is "it's only baseball" apologetics and pictures of a fucked up president sitting with a borderline-great freak of a pitcher who's decided to get together with some god-only-knows-how-weird BDSDs see what can be done to cut that one uber-pig down to size, as if any of these motherfuckers give a shit about you or me or anything else besides winning the Big Dick Contest?

More power to the BoSox pigs for fucking the Yankees' pigs, and if the Rangers' pigs can do the same thing, more power to them.

At some point in time, all the pigs will kill each other, and extra more power to that. But in the meantime, this one pig shit needs to be done with, so whatever my pigs can do to bring the Uber Pig down (or at least off for a while), is good for baseball, and as good for America as anything else.

Dude, you are just reading way too much into this stuff and projecting. I posted that picture because you continue to insist on making the Yankees into Newt Gingrich or some such... if you're going to do that, then accept that your beloved Rangers are in the hands of just such folks. I don't care, because anybody who's a sports fan in America has to accept on some level that yes, sports do reflect in certain ways some of the things going on in America. In spite of that, what happens on the field is amazing, inspiring, and entertaining, and the game itself remains a beautiful thing to see. But if you want to drag the nasty, behind-the-scenes business underbelly into it and then single out the Yankees as the Dark Lords or some such nonsense--well, friend, don't look now, but the Sith are onto your guys as well.

[JSngry]

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:11 AM, papsrus said:

Nolan Ryan is about as hard-core a baseball man as you'll find, and I'm guessing he knows what he's doing. This one signing isn't going to make or break the Rangers long term. I sure wouldn't bet against him getting what he needs, by hook or by crook.

And that'll be fun to watch.

Fun indeed, and since we're being all touchy-feeley liberal, hey, ain't it always swell to see Labor ascend to the role of Ownership? The American Dream at it's Purest!

Think that'll ever happen to our Behooved Hero Jeter?

That would be really cool. Seriously.

What the hell are Sith?

[ghost of miles]

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:16 AM, JSngry said:

All right then, fuck Wall Street, and any MLB franchise that represents the Wall Street mentality better than anybody else.

That's not political, it's economic, and it it respects the Great Tradition of the Great New York Yankees, a team that has always been about baseball first, last, and only, especially the last 10 years or so.

Our delicate liberal sensitivities should no longer be offended, and we all stand behooved.

Now, let's all hold hands and bend over.

  On 12/14/2010 at 12:57 AM, ghost of miles said:

Thanks for proving my point. Did I ever make any claims about Yankee ownership being some paragon of progressivism? No. That's not why I'm a fan of the TEAM, of its PLAYERS. But you've made this into some kind of "Yankees represent Big Bad Wall Street"...fine, well and good, but then don't try to turn around and root, root root for the home team that's controlled by the very same forces you so loudly derail. Bit of a double standard there, don't you think?

I'm rooting for one pig to take down/knock off the other pig, because the pig in question is in at least some way my pig by accident of birth, and the shared genetical disposition of thinking that some old fucker knocking Robin Ventura in the head is just plain cool.

Who is your pig?

I don't have any "pig." I have a team that I've held a longstanding affinity for (36 years at this point), through reasons rather bizarre and coincidental (hey, let's bring the Civil War into this! If we're going to get political about it...)--a team that frankly it's a pain to root for, because of crap like this. If it helps, I'll post this yet one more time, since my motives for being a Yankee fan seem to be so damn important.

As for "delicate liberal sensitivities," whatever. I have a code of manners and friendship that I try to live up to. I don't always succeed, but I damn well try. That's it. But talk about bending over! Rant and rave about the evil Wall Street Yankees all you want (while sparing the GOP Rangers), stereotype away (while avoiding all talk of Texas machismo and arrogance, if we're going to go all stereotype as well), but don't be miffed that I'm pointing out the devil's bargain you're executing on yourself.

[ghost of miles]

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:22 AM, JSngry said:

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:11 AM, papsrus said:

Nolan Ryan is about as hard-core a baseball man as you'll find, and I'm guessing he knows what he's doing. This one signing isn't going to make or break the Rangers long term. I sure wouldn't bet against him getting what he needs, by hook or by crook.

And that'll be fun to watch.

Fun indeed, and since we're being all touchy-feeley liberal, hey, ain't it always swell to see Labor ascend to the role of Ownership? The American Dream at it's Purest!

I'm sure a guy who hangs out with ex-president Bush is a swell friend of labor.

  Quote

Think that'll ever happen to our Behooved Hero Jeter?

That would be really cool. Seriously.

It would be. I don't know that it will, and it's probably less than likely, but remember that Ryan really had his shot at the Rangers only because they went bankrupt, and he had some fatcat Texan friends to back him up.

  Quote

What the hell are Sith?

Dude, if you're going to throw around Dark Side/Evil Empire kinds of references... know your Star Wars!

Sith

[JSngry]

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:17 AM, ghost of miles said:

I don't care, because anybody who's a sports fan in America has to accept on some level that yes, sports do reflect in certain ways some of the things going on in America.

Hell, anybody who's an American period has to accept that at every level their lives are controlled to some extent by pigs. Why the hell should baseball (or is it just the Yankees?) be exempt from bringing that to light when it's really, really obvious who the biggest pigs "in the arena" are?

Jackie Robinson wasn't "just baseball", neither was Curt Flood. Those were real issues concerning corporate hegemony. And all "right thinkers" - and in the case of Rickey, one of their own - were on the side of breaking up that hegemony.

Now, here in a time when America is being rape-banged by corporate interests about as conspicuously as possible, the existence of one franchise and its minions who just walk through "the game" looking to take whatever suits their fancy without fear of ever being told no, at least not in the end, is supposed to not be noted & reviled? Just becuase it's sports and doesn't really matter or something? Explain to me how that's supposed to work.

Hell, more Americans need to be aware of the corporate dicking they are getting, how Wall Street views them as mere cash crops, and if the choice ever has to be between them or us, hey, there won't even be a first thought on how that goes down, much less a second one, how Wall Street will eventually get what it wants, no matter of the cost to everybody else. And since more Americans are more informed and enthralled by sports than they are politics or economics, then hell yeah, let's stir the pot when the pot can be stirred.

Does "the game" transcend all this. Of course it does - when "the game" is played. But "the game" is on break now & it's Hot Stove season. I say heat that motherfucker all the way up, and if the stove makes the kitchen too hot, then...

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:36 AM, ghost of miles said:

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:22 AM, JSngry said:

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:11 AM, papsrus said:

Nolan Ryan is about as hard-core a baseball man as you'll find, and I'm guessing he knows what he's doing. This one signing isn't going to make or break the Rangers long term. I sure wouldn't bet against him getting what he needs, by hook or by crook.

And that'll be fun to watch.

Fun indeed, and since we're being all touchy-feeley liberal, hey, ain't it always swell to see Labor ascend to the role of Ownership? The American Dream at it's Purest!

I'm sure a guy who hangs out with ex-president Bush is a swell friend of labor.

Well, at least enough of one to keep an African-American coke user on as manager because he believed in his talent.

  Quote

Think that'll ever happen to our Behooved Hero Jeter?

That would be really cool. Seriously.

It would be. I don't know that it will, and it's probably less than likely, but remember that Ryan really had his shot at the Rangers only because they went bankrupt, and he had some fatcat Texan friends to back him up.

  Quote

Again, pigs are pigs. I give the guy credit for knowing that he had some leverage with Real Power as A True Texas Hero and for using it. Beyond that, hey, pigs is pigs.

What the hell are Sith?

Dude, if you're going to throw around Dark Side/Evil Empire kinds of references... know your Star Wars!

Sith

Dude, I'm not talking about some fantasy world. I'm talking about reality.

  On 12/14/2010 at 12:50 AM, Brad said:

Please spare us the ridiculous rants. If you could have gotten it down against the Giants we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that a World Series championship negates free agency. Thanks for the reminder!

[ghost of miles]

Nolan Ryan slaughters cattle to make his wealth. My God! Do you really want to keep pursuing this train of thought? Talk about "pigs" and metaphors for the rich in America!

You want to critique sports and the role it plays in American life, the kinds of forces it reflects? Fine, be my guest--I don't deny that there's something there. (See Halberstam's OCTOBER 1964, if you haven't already read it.) You want to keep singling out one team, over and over, because of some forged fixation and turn the battle over a ridiculously-paid athlete who's about to become even more ridiculously paid into a metaphor for some sort of social good vs. evil, simply because one team has generated tons o' revenue through its TV network (ah, but now the Rangers are onto that game as well!), its geographical location, and its history? And somehow make this particular team the symbol of all that's Wrong With America? And give your beloved Rangers a pass, simply because they're back in your own backyard (slaughtering cattle and what not)? I just think it's intellectually and morally screwy, that's all.

[JSngry]

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:30 AM, ghost of miles said:

don't be miffed that I'm pointing out the devil's bargain you're executing on yourself.

  On 12/11/2010 at 3:06 PM, JSngry said:

Shaking hands with the devil is always fun...it's when your hands start shaking after he walks away that gets kinda unpleasant...

http://barkingcarniv...r-steinbrenner/

Yeah - I'm miffed at you for "pointing out" something I had figured out from the git-go.

Are you serious?

[ghost of miles]

Back to true baseball hot stove talk for a minute ( )

Cliff Lee rumors Monday

Supposedly it's the Phillies who are the "mystery team," but I'd be astonished if anybody else manages to swoop in and land Lee at this point other than the Rangers or the Yankees.

Buster Olney reports that Lee's agent has been in ongoing contact with the Yankees today, so maybe it's not all over for NY after all. But if Mr. Lee was indeed on that plane to DFW, I'd have to say it is.

Dan (if you're still reading this thread): what is your assessment of Boston vs. a New York with Lee? Boston vs. a New York without Lee? Is Tampa Bay totally decimated in the AL East for 2011? Is Toronto or anybody else going to be a viable +.500 team?

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:54 AM, JSngry said:

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:30 AM, ghost of miles said:

don't be miffed that I'm pointing out the devil's bargain you're executing on yourself.

  On 12/11/2010 at 3:06 PM, JSngry said:

Shaking hands with the devil is always fun...it's when your hands start shaking after he walks away that gets kinda unpleasant...

http://barkingcarniv...r-steinbrenner/

Yeah - I'm miffed at you for "pointing out" something I had figured out from the git-go.

Are you serious?

I'm talking about you as a Rangers fan, not Nolan Ryan or Cliff Lee or what have you.

[JSngry]

  On 12/14/2010 at 1:52 AM, ghost of miles said:

Nolan Ryan slaughters cattle to make his wealth.

Earl Campbell does as well, and they both provide damn good product.

I invite anybody in the world to fine a finer hot link than the one manufacterd under Mr. Campbell's auspices. Impossible!

Nolan's beef is not nearly as much suis generis, but it's still pretty damn good, and definitely "a cut above".

If you think you're going to upset my train of thought by arguing that somebody manufactures quality meat products, well, good luck!

[Patrick]

  On 12/13/2010 at 10:12 PM, ghost of miles said:

But his time in Texas has put him into a situation that makes it difficult for him to walk away from the Rangers. (Though it would hardly be pulling a "LeBron," as some people are saying--the guy has played as a Ranger for what, three months?)

As someone who suffered the LeBron crap, yes there is no comparison. On so many levels. You've only been going at this for what, six weeks?

Last big name free agent the Tribe signed was future HOF-er Robbie Alomar (already in the Canadian HOF). At the time, I felt that one took forever, but the deal was signed November 24, 1998. And there wasn't an urgent bidding war like the current situation. So good luck to retaining sanity.

Anyone think the decision won't be made before Christmas?

[paul secor]

  On 12/12/2010 at 6:38 AM, JSngry said:

  On 12/12/2010 at 5:21 AM, Brad said:

We are talking about sports, right?

Wrong.

It all comes back to this. Most of us are in one place and one(?) of us is in another. Arguments are useless when people are on different planes.

[JSngry]

  On 12/14/2010 at 2:44 AM, Patrick said:

As someone who suffered the LeBron crap, yes there is no comparison. On so many levels.

I myself have not heard anybody in my circle make such a comparison, nor nobody on my radio. But there are many circles and may radios...

No matter, comparing Lee to James in any way is two turns past wrong hard into STOO-pid, and to compare what they each actually meant to their communities is too.

[ghost of miles]

Patrick--just to make things really interesting, over the past hour buzz continues to build that the Phillies really are a serious contender to land Lee. Can you imagine that rotation? Frankly, I can't believe they can pull it off, fiscally speaking, and I have to wonder if this is yet another twist being hyped by Lee's agent to try to wring a few more dollars out of either the Rangers or the Yanks...but wow, what a surprise finish it would be if the Phillies ended up signing Lee!

UPDATE: just tweeted by Joel Sherman of NY Post:

  Quote

At this moment, #Yankees have become extremely negative about landing Lee and believing that he is edging toward #Phillies

Edited December 14, 2010 by ghost of miles

[JSngry]

  On 12/14/2010 at 2:46 AM, paul secor said:

Most of us are in one place and one(?) of us is in another. Arguments are useless when people are on different planes.

And speaking of being in planes and going to different places...the whole LSB Charter flight story is about as wack an thing as I've ever seen, true or not. Well, ok, the flight story itself is legit, but the rest of it...wow, talk about crazy. really crazy.

Lee to Phillies would be seriously ROTFLMFAO funny.

Here's hoping!

[Dan Gould]

JH is terrified of jinxing it so he won't be seen until the rumors play themselves out and we find out where Lee lands.

:ph34r:

[Chalupa]

Halladay, Oswalt, Hamels, Lee? MLB might as well start sizing the Phillies for the rings right now.

As much as I would love for this to happen... it won't.

[ghost of miles]

I'm still thinking he ends up with Texas.

[JSngry]

But via what kind of plane?

[ghost of miles]

  On 12/14/2010 at 3:45 AM, JSngry said:

But via what kind of plane?

Plane!

...as seen over Arkansas, even!

Wow--"ze plane" has had an interesting history!

  Quote

Prior to being owned by the charter company, the plane belonged to author Richard Bach, which he mentions briefly in his book The Bridge Across Forever (although he does not mention the television series by name, he makes it clear from the context that he is indeed talking about Fantasy Island).[10] The aircraft was later rented or sold to parties who later used it to smuggle drugs into the United States, and it crashed in a swamp on at least one occasion. It was confiscated by the DEA and sold by the U.S. Marshals Service at auction. It again fell into the hands of other drug smugglers and was eventually confiscated and sold again.

Edited December 14, 2010 by ghost of miles

[Patrick]

  On 12/14/2010 at 3:06 AM, ghost of miles said:

Patrick--just to make things really interesting, over the past hour buzz continues to build that the Phillies really are a serious contender to land Lee. Can you imagine that rotation? Frankly, I can't believe they can pull it off, fiscally speaking, and I have to wonder if this is yet another twist being hyped by Lee's agent to try to wring a few more dollars out of either the Rangers or the Yanks...but wow, what a surprise finish it would be if the Phillies ended up signing Lee!

UPDATE: just tweeted by Joel Sherman of NY Post:

  Quote

At this moment, #Yankees have become extremely negative about landing Lee and believing that he is edging toward #Phillies

That would be fierce. Just think of the intra-staff competition to be the alpha dog between Cliff and Roy. Until this past regular season I would have said Lee had a decent chance at being the better ace. But not after what RH accomplished this year.

Rumors that the Indians considering Punto or Crede (represented by Boras) for third base.

...now back to our regular hysteria, already in progress...

[JSngry]

MLB.com reports it: http://mlb.mlb.com/index.jsp

  Quote

Goin' back to Philly: Lee agrees to return Rangers GM Jon Daniels confirmed to MLB.com late Monday that the club was told free agent

Cliff Lee would be signing with the Phillies, who he helped to the World Series in 2009.

Well hey! EX-cellent!

[Dave James]

Five years, $100 million. Yanks offered seven and $150. Disastrous for New York at least in the short run. Over the long haul, maybe not so much.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Dave James

[ghost of miles]

Wow--well, I was wrong about Lee going to Texas, that's for sure, but right that he was going to choose a team he loved playing for over the Yankees. Just didn't think Philly would still be in the mix. I know he was bummed when they traded him after 2009, but I really did think Texas offered the right combination of money and team attraction. Any word on what the Rangers' offer(s) to Lee was?

So, looks like early-money favorites for the 2011 World Series are probably Philly & Boston, eh? The Giants were giant-slayers in 2010, but look at that 2011 rotation, assuming it stays intact--we're talking 1971 Orioles here or something akin to that.

Dave James: great observation over at PA, that thank GOD the Montero trade to Seattle fell through, if Lee really wanted to go back to Philly all along. We would have given up our top hitting prospect for a half-season rental. Wonder if we'll really go after Greinke now or not (I'll bet the Rangers do). I've read reports that NY is wary of pursuing him, no matter what the outcome of the Lee chase was going to be.

[JSngry]

  On 12/14/2010 at 6:12 AM, ghost of miles said:

Any word on what the Rangers' offer(s) to Lee was?

  Quote

TBrownYahoo Tim Brown

With vesting option, Lee could have made $161 mil from Rangers. They were the high bidders.

I'm laughing my ass off at all of this, btw. The Uber Pig & the Uber Pig in Waiting both got royally played by the gangstas from Wal-Mart land, if only because Mr. Lee does indeed NOT want to pitch in the Texas heat, to which I can only say Nice Play, Nancy!

Only in America!

[ghost of miles]

Yes, I saw that Tim Brown tweet via Lone Star Ball (a place of great misery right now, as you can well imagine). Incredible! That the Rangers were the high bidders, and still lost out... well, I'm relieved that Lee won't be facing NY in the regular season, anyway (barring possible interleague games). But wow, I guess the whole "Lee loved his time in Texas" spiel was, in the end, pretty much a spiel. If you'd told me a week ago that Texas would have the highest offer to him, I would've said that it's over, baby, a done deal, stick a fork in all non-Ranger bidders, etc.

Hats off to the Phillies for executing this deal... last-minute hot-stove shocker!