2010-2011 Hot Stove Thread

[Dan Gould]

Paps may be on to something there. Kinsler and Young are under team control through 2013. All of the other guys who played key roles are all under team control for at least two more years and in the case of the closer and Elvis Andrus, five more years. Josh Hamilton is the biggest name who is closest to free agency, and the team still controls him for three more years.

That's a real strong core that won't be reaching free agency for a while. And on top of that the Rangers are supposed to have tremendous talent in their system.

Really if they were smart they'd make the deal for Grienke to show Lee that they are committed to getting back to the World Series and aren't just reliant on Lee to lead the way. Imagine if the Rangers had two aces locked up, with those position players under team control? They'd instantly be World Series favorites.

There is no reason to wait on Lee before deciding to pursue Grienke.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Dan Gould

[JSngry]

Really if they were smart they'd make the deal for Grienke to show Lee that they are committed to getting back to the World Series and aren't just reliant on Lee to lead the way. Imagine if the Rangers had two aces locked up, with those position players under team control? They'd instantly be World Series favorites.

There is no reason to wait on Lee before deciding to pursue Grienke.

My sentiments exactly. But that would upset the natural order of things, doncha' know... The BDSDs aren't fully unhypnotized yet.

[Quincy]

Trying not to sound too naive, but has anyone considered that Lee just might view the Rangers as the better team going forward?

Especially as a lefty (even though he has flyball tendencies), if I'm looking at Jetes behind me or Elvis, Elvis is king! And that's the kicker in talk of shaky Yankee pitching. There's be less shake if during the contract talks with Jeter it was suggested that he work hard this offseason to become a third baseman. Unlike a lot of hitters Alex has had no problem whatsoever hitting as a DH. It would probably be better for Alex's hip if DH'd as well. (Posada can stick around a mentor, mascot, parttime DH/C.) You'd have to stress with Derek that at 3rd he'd need to plant the back foot when throwing as that falling backwards move, cool as looks isn't good fundamental baseball. Go find yourself a glove SS and presto, Hughes becomes a better pitcher and maybe even A.J. Boston learned the lesson with Nomar. Pete Rose & Youks gave up their primary positions for the good of the team, Jeter could too if he wanted to.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Quincy

[JETman]

As a close observer of all things NY (I've lived in the damned state all of my life, after all), my feeling is that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for the Yankees and their fans to finally receive a VERY serious dose of humble pie right about now.

[ghost of miles]

Trying not to sound too naive, but has anyone considered that Lee just might view the Rangers as the better team going forward?

Nolan Ryan certainly has a lot of appeal as an owner. And the Yankee roster is getting a little long in the tooth.

All things being (relatively) equal, now that they've had a taste of playoff success, the Rangers might just be the better option from a competitive standpoint.

Yes, that point has been made elsewhere, though I'm not sure it's been made in this thread, but yes, Paps, for the reasons you and Dan outlined, Lee certainly has a lot to think about, and it's yet another reason I've thought since late last summer that he's likely to end up staying with Texas. You can also add that Mo Rivera has two years left at most, while Feliz is just starting out. I know Nolan Ryan likes his pitchers to throw long games, but at some point the closer factor's still there, and Texas may be looking better in that regard as well over a five or six-year period.

The Yankees aren't "entitled" to Lee (they simply want him very badly right now), and despite whatever cracks or remarks have been thrown around about "natural order of things" etc., for the umpteenth time, observe the Yankees' record between 1982 and 1993 (I'll leave out 1994, the year they finally became a playoff-viable team again, since that season was aborted) for plenty o' humble pie (and don't forget the 2004 ALCS!). (Also please see The Greg Maddux Story.) As I posted earlier, it's not at all unlikely that NY will enter another phase of less-than-championship quality teams. I think landing Lee would stave it off for another year or two, but 2009 may prove to have been a long-delayed exclamation point for the 1996-2000 era. The Yankees, as they've proved over and over again, are not invincible, whatever vibes others may project onto them. They are extremely committed to trying to win, as are many other MBL teams and ownership groups. How that makes them "pigs" while Ryan, Davis and company somehow escape this stigma is beyond me, but pretty much par for the course.

Edited December 13, 2010 by ghost of miles

[ghost of miles]

BTW, a couple of possible takes on why we haven't heard from Lee yet:

(1)(via a commenter at Lone Star Ball) Lee and Darek Braunecker already have the offer they want from Texas and are just waiting to see if the Yankees make a crazy re-up (say, 7 yrs/175 million, or even 8 yrs/200 million or some such. Doesn't this whole thing seem like a Cliff Lee E-Bay auction?). Cashman has said that he had contact with Braunecker over the weekend; he's also said that 7 yrs/161 million is NY's final offer, which makes me think that Braunecker called him to say, "Cliff has a very intriguing offer from Texas... what say you?" To which Cashman probably replied (if he's to be believed), "What's out there is all we're prepared to offer."

(2) (my own out-of-leftfield take) Is Lee, after all's said and done, possibly leaning towards taking the Yankees' offer anyway--and his wife isn't? I find it hard to believe that Mrs. Lee doesn't favor staying in Arkansas.

I think (1) is probably the case, but who knows. The NY Times says some baseball people think Lee and Braunecker are stalling to get more money out of the Rangers, not the Yankees. But I think NY and Texas have probably both gone as high as they're willing to go.

[Dan Gould]

Fact is, having manipulated the Rangers into making a very sizable offer, more than they said they would, and reportedly with a seventh year as a possible vesting option, going with the even bigger check from the Steinbrenners will paint Lee for all time as a mercenary, a gun for hire, a guy who went to NY to get his ring, and it took every last dollar to sell his soul.

He'll be hated everywhere he goes, in other words.

If he does stay in Texas though, only NY will boo him.

And apparently, the misses is used to that.

[ghost of miles]

Fact is, having manipulated the Rangers into making a very sizable offer, more than they said they would, and reportedly with a seventh year as a possible vesting option, going with the even bigger check from the Steinbrenners will paint Lee for all time as a mercenary, a gun for hire, a guy who went to NY to get his ring, and it took every last dollar to sell his soul.

He'll be hated everywhere he goes, in other words.

If he does stay in Texas though, only NY will boo him.

And apparently, the misses is used to that.

So do you now think/agree that Lee is probably going to the Rangers, Dan?

I'm glad we didn't succed in trading Montero to get him, but I think the day he landed in Texas was the beginning of the end for the Yankees' hopes of signing him this winter.

[Dan Gould]

Oh no, I still say he goes for that last dollar. Haven't we established he's a whore, now we're just determining his price?

But seriously, my observation wasn't made with the belief that it would impact his decision. Just an observation of what he will encounter once he's committed to the Dark Side.

[JSngry]

Shaking hands with the devil is always fun...it's when your hands start shaking after he walks away that gets kinda unpleasant...

http://barkingcarniv...r-steinbrenner/

My advice to all teams everywhere, recruit yourself some BDSDs of your own, and then pretend it never happened.

Pigs is pigs, period.

How that makes them "pigs" while Ryan, Davis and company somehow escape this stigma is beyond me

Them pinstripes in your veins be causing cataracts or something?

Or are you behooved?

[Brad]

Regardless of where he goes and I have no idea what he was paid this year but this is his one chance for a big payday and he's doing everything to squeeze the most out of that opportunity. I doubt any one of us wouldn't do that if some one was bidding for our services. Kind of reminds me what Mike Norris of the As said "tomorrow I'll be rich or richer."

[JSngry]

Olbermann on Lee: http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/12/off_a_cliff.html

[paul secor]

Let Texas have Lee. Jim will be happy - at least until the Rangers find a way to lose it all. They always have.

[JSngry]

Hell, until this year, they've never really found a way to have anything to lose! (unless you call a slugging divisional champion with no real pitching depth, and theretofore no real chance, something to lose......)

As far as me being happy, well...that's a complicated proposition, but once Mr. Lee pays his debt, it should be a little better.

If he pays his debt...

:rmad::rmad:

And as far as the BDSD money pigs go...this is how working people become fans of gangsters. It's not the existence of gangsters that bother us, it's that we don't have some of our own to defend our turf.

American psyche 101.

[Patrick]

Was thinking of this thread while watching part of the "30 for 30" documentary on $MU football last night.

[ghost of miles]

Shaking hands with the devil is always fun...it's when your hands start shaking after he walks away that gets kinda unpleasant...

http://barkingcarniv...r-steinbrenner/

My advice to all teams everywhere, recruit yourself some BDSDs of your own, and then pretend it never happened.

Pigs is pigs, period.

How that makes them "pigs" while Ryan, Davis and company somehow escape this stigma is beyond me

Them pinstripes in your veins be causing cataracts or something?

Or are you behooved?

No--bemused, disgusted and emboldened is more like it, with apologies to Lorenz Hart.

Olbermann's piece on Lee just about sums up everything I've thought since learning (not long after he was traded to Texas) that he's from Benton, Arkansas. And what I like about Olbermann's take is that it's not condescending at all...he's not saying that Lee can't "take" NYC, or that he wouldn't be able to bear the pressure (he's surely proven how well he can pitch under the bright lights of Yankee Stadium)...just that Lee's persona might take more happily to a Texas setting. I do think Lee is a pretty straight-up guy (but wily for sure, as is his agent)--certainly not a "whore," even if he ends up deciding that he wants the extra money that NY's offering. But his time in Texas has put him into a situation that makes it difficult for him to walk away from the Rangers. (Though it would hardly be pulling a "LeBron," as some people are saying--the guy has played as a Ranger for what, three months?)

So--if the Yankees don't land Cliff Lee, they're definitely a weaker team for the next couple of years, although picking up Greinke could change that...he's much more of a question mark than Lee, but ultimately might prove to be a better deal. The upside for the Yankees is they don't get saddled with paying $23 million a year to a 36/37/38/39-year old pitcher (though yes, Lee may well age better than other pitchers, which is why the Texas/NY offers aren't completely crazy). NY will definitely be a pick to finish second at best in the AL East. No matter, it's still baseball, and as I said earlier, it'll still be a pleasure to watch Jeter, Rivera, Posada, and (hopefully) Pettitte finish out their careers...players that to me symbolize the best of what the Yankees or any great baseball teams are about. Not owners and front-office execs.

We are talking about sports, right?

Wrong.

Right! I don't really want to, but if we're gonna go there, hey, let's go there!

Edited December 13, 2010 by ghost of miles

[Brad]

We are talking about sports, right?

Wrong.

Right! I don't really want to, but if we're gonna go there, hey, let's go there!

BTW, I also heard that Greinke is not a "NY kind of guy." I don't know what the problem is with these guys. It's the greatest place in the world to play but, hey, to each his own.

[JSngry]

And the Steinbrenners are True Blue Democrats?

Hardly.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/DC-Decoder/2010/0716/George-Steinbrenner-spent-big-on-politics-too

You can go there, but there's really no there there.

Pigs is pigs, period.

[JSngry]

..players that to me symbolize the best of what the Yankees or any great baseball teams are about. Not owners and front-office execs.

Yeah, so you think it's cool that there's one "team" that can sit there and look at the rest of it's peers and say "You guys can have whatever you want - unless we really, really want it, in which case, fuck you, you don't have a chance, we can shit all over you if we need to, and you better believe we will, so get the fuck out of our way"?

If it was anybody but the Yankees in anything besides baseball, you'd be righteously ranting against such a thing, as well you should be. But it's not, so all you can offer is "it's only baseball" apologetics and pictures of a fucked up president sitting with a borderline-great freak of a pitcher who's decided to get together with some god-only-knows-how-weird BDSDs see what can be done to cut that one uber-pig down to size, as if any of these motherfuckers give a shit about you or me or anything else besides winning the Big Dick Contest?

More power to the BoSox pigs for fucking the Yankees' pigs, and if the Rangers' pigs can do the same thing, more power to them.

At some point in time, all the pigs will kill each other, and extra more power to that. But in the meantime, this one pig shit needs to be done with, so whatever my pigs can do to bring the Uber Pig down (or at least off for a while), is good for baseball, and as good for America as anything else.

Edited December 13, 2010 by JSngry

[Dave James]

I'd like to think that the Yankees Plan B begins and ends with Zack Greinke, but that would be a stretch. Not only is he a poor fit for New York from a functional standpoint, but the Yankees farm system isn't very well equipped to provide what Kansas City wants in trade. From what I'm reading, they are after players up the middle and maybe a catcher. The Yanks have plenty of catchers, Eduardo Nunez and Brett Gardner, but there are a lot of other teams with more to give, Toronto and Milwaukee being two of them. If New York loses the Lee sweepstakes, Brian Cashman can say all he wants about it not being a home wrecker. He's just whistling past the grave yard. Given the way the Red Sox have ramped up their offense, even with Lee, I'm not sure they get it done.

[Brad]

Please spare us the ridiculous rants. If you could have gotten it down against the Giants we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

[ghost of miles]

And the Steinbrenners are True Blue Democrats?

Hardly.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/DC-Decoder/2010/0716/George-Steinbrenner-spent-big-on-politics-too

You can go there, but there's really no there there.

Pigs is pigs, period.

Thanks for proving my point. Did I ever make any claims about Yankee ownership being some paragon of progressivism? No. That's not why I'm a fan of the TEAM, of its PLAYERS. But you've made this into some kind of "Yankees represent Big Bad Wall Street"...fine, well and good, but then don't try to turn around and root, root root for the home team that's controlled by the very same forces you so loudly derail. Bit of a double standard there, don't you think?

I'd really, really like to keep politics out of a baseball thread, but since that's what you're on about here, so be it.

[ghost of miles]

Please spare us the ridiculous rants. If you could have gotten it done against the Giants we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

No kidding. Jsngry, you know how much respect I have for you, but wtf? Yes, it's only baseball--a business and a game. Last time I checked, the Yankees have won exactly one World Series in the past ten seasons. ONE, just like seven other teams in that period. Only team to win more than one in that span is Boston, who just shelled out a lot of cashola for Mr. Carl Crawford. Go, get your hate on! The evil Red Sox, spending money right and left!

All I'm saying is that if you're going to drag American politics/ideology into your sports, I don't see how in hell you can keep rooting for the Rangers. Good luck finding a team period that isn't, in some way, tainted by the forces you're critiquing. Hell, really, the Giants, in spite of their Barry Zito fiasco, would be a much better fit...there was a team with character, soul, and not too much of a payroll. (And Zito didn't even make the postseason roster!)

Baseball has its own way of leveling the playing field, no matter what the Yankees or Red Sox or Rangers or who-freakin'-ever tries to bolster their team with high-paid stars. (2003 World Series, anybody?) Yes, the Yankees have great financial resources (again, sure as hell not why I root for them), but they've spent and spent and spent and often to no avail. The great 1996-2001 teams were built almost entirely around homegrown and traded talent! So wtf, my friend, wtf.

On a lighter note (for you): there's a rumor that Cliff Lee was on the chartered plane w/Ranger connections that just landed in DFW from Little Rock. If he was, maybe "Incarcerated Bob" really did have the right scoop after all. Lee 7 yrs/$145 million to the Rangers, perhaps?

OTOH NY Daily News is claiming no decision till Tuesday at the earliest.

Edited December 14, 2010 by ghost of miles

[papsrus]

Well, it does take more than just money to build a successful franchise (see Chicago Cubs, New York Mets).

Nolan Ryan is about as hard-core a baseball man as you'll find, and I'm guessing he knows what he's doing. This one signing isn't going to make or break the Rangers long term. I sure wouldn't bet against him getting what he needs, by hook or by crook.

And that'll be fun to watch.

[JSngry]

All right then, fuck Wall Street, and any MLB franchise that represents the Wall Street mentality better than anybody else.

That's not political, it's economic, and it it respects the Great Tradition of the Great New York Yankees, a team that has always been about baseball first, last, and only, especially the last 10 years or so.

Our delicate liberal sensitivities should no longer be offended, and we all stand behooved.

Now, let's all hold hands and bend over.

Thanks for proving my point. Did I ever make any claims about Yankee ownership being some paragon of progressivism? No. That's not why I'm a fan of the TEAM, of its PLAYERS. But you've made this into some kind of "Yankees represent Big Bad Wall Street"...fine, well and good, but then don't try to turn around and root, root root for the home team that's controlled by the very same forces you so loudly derail. Bit of a double standard there, don't you think?

I'm rooting for one pig to take down/knock off the other pig, because the pig in question is in at least some way my pig by accident of birth, and the shared genetical disposition of thinking that some old fucker knocking Robin Ventura in the head is just plain cool.

Who is your pig?