CTI reissues: box-set, 1971 concert, single titles

[Leroy Bad]

Hello everyone. This is my first post here. I really like the stuff on the CTI label especially stuff before 1975.

I have a few of the earlier issues on the Japanese labels including the Creed Taylor and Rudy Van Gelder reissues from 2009.

Does these forum condone the posting of small audio samples 30-45 seconds for the sake of comparison with other releases? I'd really like to get your opinions on some of them compared to the new CTI Master Works issues.

As regards Blues Moses I feel that there is more detail and warmth in the 2006 pressing.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Leroy Bad

[crisp]

Amazon US is listing the next batch for October 4:

Wild Horses Rock Steady by Johnny Hammond Smith

Don't You Worry Bout a Thing by Hank Crawford

Mama Wailer by Lonnie Smith

Performance by Esther Phillips

Some more info on these titles at the excellent Second Disc blog.

[ShowsOn]

Hello everyone. This is my first post here. I really like the stuff on the CTI label especially stuff before 1975.

I have a few of the earlier issues on the Japanese labels including the Creed Taylor and Rudy Van Gelder reissues from 2009.

Does these forum condone the posting of small audio samples 30-45 seconds for the sake of comparison with other releases? I'd really like to get your opinions on some of them compared to the new CTI Master Works issues.

As regards Blues Moses I feel that there is more detail and warmth in the 2006 pressing.

Hi and welcome!

I have uploaded a heap of CTI comparisons here that you may be interested in:

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=6860483&postcount=1

Most of my comparisons are the old CBS and Epic / Legacy versions compared to the new Masterworks versions. I find that I prefer the sound of the Masterworks versions, but sometimes the differences are very small. Some examples, e.g. Milt Jackson's Sunflower the differences are huge. The Legacy version is very, very narrow stereo, whereas the Masterworks version is very wide stereo, which gives the album a completely different feel, so it is nice owning both versions.

[Leroy Bad]

Oh, wow I post there, and I totally missed that thread! I'll re post a couple of the tracks there for comparison taken from the 2009 CTI+RVG editions.

[Leroy Bad]

Have question.......Milt Jackson-Olinga was released as a japanese import in 2006 on King Records. IS the packaging standard jewel case/booklet/tray card with OBI or is it a MINI LP with OBI.

Yes the 2006 releases are in Jewel cases. I have a few of them, they are the "CTI Timeless Collection 40" series.

[Leroy Bad]

Hey I have a quick question. Are there any differences between, the 1997 issues and the 2002-03 issues other than packaging and CD art?

I have both the 1997 and 2003 issues of Skylark and Straight Life. They sound the same, but I don't know.

[ShowsOn]

Hey I have a quick question. Are there any differences between, the 1997 issues and the 2002-03 issues other than packaging and CD art?

I have both the 1997 and 2003 issues of Skylark and Straight Life. They sound the same, but I don't know.

I'm pretty sure they are the same. Who is credited for the mastering?

I have SEEN many EPIC / Legacy CTI releases in both jewel cases and digipaks. I strongly doubt they used different mastering as well as different packaging.

[Leroy Bad]

I was listening to some of the comparisons posted above. Body Talk, Beyond the Blue Horizon, Sunflower, and First Light. You guys may be far more analytical or experienced than I am. I noticed some differences but none of them are night and day.

The one that has the biggest sonic improvement is Body Talk, however I couldn't tell any difference from the clips of First Light, maybe I don't know what to listen for but to my untrained ears they are identical. I will say however I replaced my 1987 issue of First Light for the 2002 issue, in which there is definitely a night and day difference between those two.

The change in Beyond the Blue Horizon seems to be only in the mix, the percussion is heard in the right channel where as the 97 issue has it in the middle. Out of my own preference... I prefer the 97 issue...the percussion on one side sounds strange to me.

Sunflower is the odd one. during Ron Carters bass solo, the Legacy issue includes a guitar over it. But in the masterworks version the guitar is absent!

I think I remember listening to the Masterworks version of Jim Hall Concierto and comparing it the RVG remaster, and I had noticed Chet Baker appears on opposite sides on those releases.

Anyway I noticed that Sony is releasing some albums from the Original Album Classics series for Deodato, which includes Prelude, Deodato 2, and Deodato and Airto In Concert

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005B7E0U8/

And George Benson which include Body Talk, White Rabbit, and Beyond the Blue Horizon.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CUB728/

I have the previous Benson box which included Body Talk, Beyond the Bl... , and Bad Benson, plus two other non CTI release. But the question is will these reissues include the new Masterworks remasters.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Leroy Bad

[ShowsOn]

I was listening to some of the comparisons posted above. Body Talk, Beyond the Blue Horizon, Sunflower, and First Light. You guys may be far more analytical or experienced than I am. I noticed some differences but none of them are night and day.

Woah! Even on Sunflower? The difference on that one is enormous. The Legacy disc is almost mono, whereas the Masterworks disc is wide stereo.

[Leroy Bad]

I was listening to some of the comparisons posted above. Body Talk, Beyond the Blue Horizon, Sunflower, and First Light. You guys may be far more analytical or experienced than I am. I noticed some differences but none of them are night and day.

Woah! Even on Sunflower? The difference on that one is enormous. The Legacy disc is almost mono, whereas the Masterworks disc is wide stereo.

Yes I do hear the difference in stereo range, I should've mentioned that. Call me stubborn but I still prefer the King Records releases despite any criticisms. For example King's 2006 reissues of Giant Box and Blue Moses sound more detailed and warmer to me than the Masterworks versions. And with their 2009 releases I still feel the same. Perhaps the first review and comparisons between the 2009 King and Masterworks releases I read by Marc Myers at JazzWaxx.com has had some influence, but I compared them back and forth a well.

Excerpt

Now, to mark the 40th anniversary of CTI's first releases as a stand-alone company, Sony Music (which acquired Columbia) is issuing a four-CD box set in mid-October called CTI Records: The Cool Revolution. The box features 39 tracks from a variety of CTI albums. Additional CTI reissues are planned by Sony.

But as ambitious as Sony's CTI plans are, the box set's recordings simply don't sound as vibrant or as distinctive as they should—despite claims in promotional materials that the label remastered the original two-track analog CTI masters.

I'm sure that Sony remastered the material. The problem is the label for some strange reason didn't do as good a job as it has done recently for other jazz artists who were part of the Columbia fold. I know this because I just spent the past week listening to 20 different CTI releases from King Records in Japan and have compared them with Sony's set. The King's CDs are far and away superior in detail and warmth.

Yesterday I posted about Sony's upcoming four-CD box set of remastered CTI tracks and the 20 CTI albums from King (Japan) newly remastered by original producer Creed Taylor and engineer Rudy Van Gelder. As I noted yesterday, there's really no comparison between the two different efforts: The King releases are way more spectacular on every level. Creed and Rudy restored more information and sonic detail than existed on the original vinyl LPs. And the technology behind the CDs themselves is a cut above. - Marc Myers

The rest of his review and commentary can be found here as Part 1 and 2

http://www.jazzwax.com/2010/09/a-tale-of-two-cti-releases.html

http://www.jazzwax.com/2010/10/a-tale-of-two-ctis-part-2.html

And Arnaldo DeSouteiro at Jazz Station who worked on previous Japanese/US/EU releases has made similar comments.

http://jazzstation-oblogdearnaldodesouteiros.blogspot.com/2011/05/cd-reissue-of-month-don-sebesky-giant.html

Edited September 22, 2011 by Leroy Bad

[Big Al]

Call me stubborn but I still prefer the King Records releases despite any criticisms. For example King's 2006 reissues of Giant Box and Blue Moses sound more detailed and warmer to me than the Masterworks versions.

Okay, you're stubborn! I respectfully disagree about GIANT BOX, although my disagreement isn't enough to say I'd pick one over the other at gunpoint. IMO, they both sound fantastic and at this stage of the game, with mp3/loudness/compression being the norm, to have this masterpiece of an album available in not one, but TWO, incredible sounding versions is nothing short of a miracle.

But I still like the Masterworks version better.

[Leroy Bad]

What really kills the masterworks releases for me is the packaging. I had 3 of those releases and all 3 of them had bends and tears in them before I had even removed the shrink wrap.

[ShowsOn]

For anyone who doesn't have it, the Cool Revolutions box is going to be an Amazon Black Friday deal in 3.5 hours from now:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003YVNZ2M?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[CJ Shearn]

I hope they continue the series reissuing "In Concert vols 1&2" by Freddie and Stanley, but the complete concert.

[Leroy Bad]

So we've discussed the CD reissues, but has anyone got a hold of the four vinyl reissues? How to to analog variations compare with the digital ones? differences in sound or mastering?

I plan to get a turntable one of these days and would be interested in hearing Prelude.

[Peter Johnson]

Just bumping this up to see if anyone has heard any recent news about this reissue program. I've been enjoying picking these up, but fear with no news in many months, things are dead in the water. Can someone prove me wrong?

[Leroy Bad]

I wish I could prove you wrong. There are a handful of things I'd like to see reissued in the US. I myself have been buying many of the Japanese reissues as they have covered more territory more frequently. King Japan has been pretty consistent with reissues every 3-4 years. Sony seems to reissue CTI material once every decade almost.

However, don't forget about the 3 Joe Farrell albums on Wounded Bird from 2011 (Penny Arcade, Canned Funk, and Upon This Rock)

[CJ Shearn]

Just bumping this up to see if anyone has heard any recent news about this reissue program. I've been enjoying picking these up, but fear with no news in many months, things are dead in the water. Can someone prove me wrong?

The series was to end after the 40th Anniversary. I thought after seeing the Cool Revolution box cover they'd reissue everything from that but I guess not. I understand the reissues they put a LOT into like "California Concert" didn't sell as they had hoped according to Doug Payne. Richard Seidel was looking into reissuing the entire "Turrentine/Hubbard: in Concert" date as well as the legal issues surrounding "CTI Summer Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl" (unedited/untouched tapes probably DO exist). Shame because this CTI reissue program IMHO was the best one ever in the US. I guess CTI really doesn't sell in the US except for the well worn titles.

[Matthew]

Just bumping this up to see if anyone has heard any recent news about this reissue program. I've been enjoying picking these up, but fear with no news in many months, things are dead in the water. Can someone prove me wrong?

The series was to end after the 40th Anniversary. I thought after seeing the Cool Revolution box cover they'd reissue everything from that but I guess not. I understand the reissues they put a LOT into like "California Concert" didn't sell as they had hoped according to Doug Payne. Richard Seidel was looking into reissuing the entire "Turrentine/Hubbard: in Concert" date as well as the legal issues surrounding "CTI Summer Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl" (unedited/untouched tapes probably DO exist). Shame because this CTI reissue program IMHO was the best one ever in the US. I guess CTI really doesn't sell in the US except for the well worn titles.

I loved the series they did last year, and I bought everyone. I'd just love to see this series continue, but it probably won't happen *sigh*

[ShowsOn]

However, don't forget about the 3 Joe Farrell albums on Wounded Bird from 2011 (Penny Arcade, Canned Funk, and Upon This Rock)

Unfortunately the mastering on those is truly awful. They are basically brickwalled like the latest rock / pop album.

[Leroy Bad]

Yes they do sound bad. Yet the quality of the music keeps me coming back! =-O

I had downloaded some rips from the LPs and unfortunately they don't sound any different.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Leroy Bad

[JETman]

I can appreciate the efforts of labels like Wounded Bird as much as the next guy. However, to me, they focus just a little too much on the mediocre. Listening to some of the stuff they put out is like a being in a bad nightmare that leaves you feeling "dirty" once you've escaped from its hold. That being said, those Farrell albums are nothing to write home about, as is too much of the material the label puts out. Another good example of this is the release of the Compost albums. I mean, why bother?

[Leroy Bad]

I can appreciate the efforts of labels like Wounded Bird as much as the next guy. However, to me, they focus just a little too much on the mediocre. Listening to some of the stuff they put out is like a being in a bad nightmare that leaves you feeling "dirty" once you've escaped from its hold. That being said, those Farrell albums are nothing to write home about, as is too much of the material the label puts out. Another good example of this is the release of the Compost albums. I mean, why bother?

Well I myself have found some intensely funky stuff on Canned Funk and Penny Arcade. I guess it's a matter of taste.

Also they just released Gleam by Freddie Hubbard this week which is quickly becoming one of my favorite Hubbard albums.

Also I was impressed with Griffith Park Collection with Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, Lenny White, Freddie Hubbard ,and Joe Henderson....I feel no "dirt" there!

Edited June 15, 2012 by Leroy Bad

[Matthew]

I don't go to Wounded Bird too much for jazz cds, but I have the Farrell's, and to my ears, they sound okay (though I'm having an operation on both ears next week, so I might not be the best source), they are nice to have nonetheless. Most of my WB buys have been rock cds of obscure 70s rock bands -- hey, there's no accounting for taste!

I just wish CTI will release new remasters as I thought they did a great job last year.

edit for spelling (which I'm hopeless at)

Edited June 15, 2012 by Matthew

[Shawn]

Another good example of this is the release of the Compost albums. I mean, why bother?

Because they're fun albums?

Wounded Bird by it's very nature is going to get the lesser known albums to release, since their focus is to release albums that the original labels have no intention of bothering with. That by itself doesn't mean the material is mediocre, just that the projected sales aren't high enough for a major to reissue.