It was 70 Years Ago Today

[A Lark Ascending]

Amazing people! Edited September 15, 2010 by A Lark Ascending

[Ted O'Reilly]

Wasn't it 70 years ago today?

[A Lark Ascending]

Wasn't it 70 years ago today?

I'm an historian, not a mathematician!

Thanks! Will change!

(explanation - I initially put 60! Must be the tears!)

Edited September 15, 2010 by A Lark Ascending

[danasgoodstuff]

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few" My late father. who was born in 1931, was fascinated by the battle of Britain. I recently helped a student (in my job at the library) who'd got it confused as 'the English war with Britain'...took me longer to untangle that one than it should have. Didn't try as hard as I should have to explain it further. There is something to be said for the veiw that the Royal Navy should've been able to tear the Germans apart in the Channel if an invasion had been attempted, and for the view that most of the war ended up being fought in the East - nontheless a great victory for (mostly) good over totally evil...

[A Lark Ascending]

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few" My late father. who was born in 1931, was fascinated by the battle of Britain. I recently helped a student (in my job at the library) who'd got it confused as 'the English war with Britain'...took me longer to untangle that one than it should have. Didn't try as hard as I should have to explain it further. There is something to be said for the veiw that the Royal Navy should've been able to tear the Germans apart in the Channel if an invasion had been attempted, and for the view that most of the war ended up being fought in the East - nontheless a great victory for (mostly) good over totally evil...

Yes, the 'significance' issue is controversial. I was pretty convinced by a recent book I read that suggested that Hitler's heart was not really in an invasion of Britain; it was partly a case of being on a roll from the early summer and partly an attempt to intimidate so that a frightened Parliament would ditch Churchill in favour of Lord Halifax and those who would have accepted a ceasefire, leaving a free hand for Russia. It probably meant more to Goering - a triumph over Britain would have improved his standing in the internal Nazi Party power struggles.

Even though most of the pilots were British many came from overseas (including AVM Park, the 11 Group commander). I loved the story of a Polish squadron who were denied the right to fly because of a fear of misunderstandings in radio contact due to the language issue. One day they were sent out by mistake and performermed superbly. The chap who authorised their scrambling wwas given a right royal bollocking...and then told they were fully operational!

There's no doubt the brunt of the war was felt by the Russians; but this was one of the first chinks of light. And clearly, to we Brits, holds a special place. The pilots were no braver or skilled than those who fought in the other theatres (or the German pilots for that matter); but the stories of what it was like to be flying 3 or four sorties a day make my hair stand on end.

[mjazzg]

and what made my hair stand on end was an interview with one of those pilots where he was asked "weren't you scared?" to which he replied "I was too young to be scared". He was 19 at the time!

[A Lark Ascending]

and what made my hair stand on end was an interview with one of those pilots where he was asked "weren't you scared?" to which he replied "I was too young to be scared". He was 19 at the time!

Even scarier when you read the odds of survival for a pilot in his first few operational weeks. Once a bit of combat experience was acquired chances improved dramatically.

[mjazzg]

yes, it does take the concept of 'learning on the job' a bit far. I think what's so touching about the interviews with the veterans is their apparent nonchalance. Another comment was "well I'd never seen a German plane before so to see about a hundred of them silhouetted against the clouds was really rather impressive"

It's truly hard to imagine what they must have gone through with sortie after sortie in terms of simple physical exhaustion - I know adrenalin's a powerful stimulant but...

[seeline]

70 years ago today... the Blitz was also going full-tilt.

I cannot imagine living through that, let alone with the aplomb demonstrated by so many who were under fire.

Edited September 18, 2010 by seeline

[A Lark Ascending]

BBC4 had an evening about the Battle of Britain last night. Amazing in that 2 hours of it was made up of veterans (Tom Neil and Geoffrey Wellum), historians and a current RAF boss discussing the event in armchairs. At 8.00 in the evening - didn't think that was allowed in modern TV'!

Two points that struck me:

a) The modesty and self-deprecation of the veterans (that mjazzg alludes to above). The historian Stephen Bungay in his book and in this programme stressed the culture of team work and 'just doing my job' outlook of the RAF pilots compared with the Luftwaffe where pilots were expected to assist the aces to up their scores. Bungay suggested, in a light way, that we might want to reflect on that in this age of celebrity worship.

b) The respect the two pilots had for the young men and women in the RAF today, both insisting they are 'just the same as us'. There was also a clip of Douglas Bader in the 60s who was asked what he thought of the anti-war movement of that time; he commented that back in the '30s there had been an equally strong pacifist movement (the famous Oxford Union 'King and Country' debate) yet they were the first people to enlist in 1939. Given how often you hear grumpy old men grumbling about how young people today are intellectually/socially/morally inferior, this was a joy to hear.

Nice programme about the women who flew the planes from the factories to the airfields too.

[sidewinder]

Yes, saw that BBC4 Battle of Britain night last night and recorded most of it to the HDD off Freeview. Glad I did.

That programme on the building of the Wellington Bomber at Vickers, Broughton (now an Airbus plant) within 24 hours was outstanding. Not least that many of the workforce were women who were laid-off as soon as hostilities ceased.

Reminded me of flying over the old Avro satellite factory at Yeadon, Yorks as a kid - even back in the 60s the site was still camouflaged and quite difficult to pick out as it was mainly covered/underground. They built many, many Lancasters there.

Not to mention that my classroom back in the 60s still had the old WW2 blackout curtains 'in situ' and some of the older staff shuffled around with war wounds problems. What I didn't comprehends at the time was that WW2 was still fairly recent history - but for me it at the time with my pre-teen mindset it seemed like another age.

The Battle of Britain was certainly a key strategic turning point of WW2. It was 1942 before things improved on the home front but this was definitely the turning point. Also a mesterstroke of sending those few Wellington & Hampden Bombers over to Berlin during 40/41 (incredible bravery of those crews). Apparantly the little dictator flew into a fury over that.

Edited September 19, 2010 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

Nice programme about the women who flew the planes from the factories to the airfields too.

Wish I'd recorded that. I know White Waltham airfield near Maidenhead quite well and spent some time working some years ago at the old aircraft plant at Hamble ! (used to be the Supermarine plant)

I like the bit about the woman pilot who went partying every night without fail in the West End after an exhausting day of 'ferrying'. She sounds formidable.

Edited September 19, 2010 by sidewinder

[A Lark Ascending]

The Battle of Britain was certainly a key strategic turning point of WW2. It was 1942 before things improved on the home front but this was definitely the turning point. Also a mesterstroke of sending those few Wellington & Hampden Bombers over to Berlin during 40/41 (incredible bravery of those crews). Apparantly the little dictator flew into a fury over that.

I've always been a bit wary of making too much of it - a sense that it is so entrenched in our national mythology that we might just be over-emphasising its importance.

But I thought Bungay and Holland made a very good case, pointing out that had we done a deal with Hitler in 1940 then he would have had a free hand in the east (which is what he wanted all along). Keeping Britain in the war meant Hitler had to continue looking in two directions, especially once activity began to pick up in North Africa and the Med.

What I didn't comprehends at the time was that WW2 was still fairly recent history - but for me it at the time with my pre-teen mindset it seemed like another age.

It definitely seemed like something long ago; and yet it was all around me. Growing up on RAF bases I suppose I came into contact with is more regularly - most seemed to have a Spitfire on display at the camp entrance. I know as 10 year old I haid Airfix Spitfires and Hurricanes, those minature airfix soldiers from various theatres of the war, 'spotter' books on WWII planes and tanks. And there was a never ending stream of war movies keeping it all very much alive - given how we were sinking into post-Imperial angst and economic uncertainty it's not surprising our 'Finest Hour' was milked for all it was worth.

[BillF]

I can't really claim to remember any of this - but almost! I was born in Cardiff in November 1939. My parents told me that in the winter of 1940-41 German aircraft passed over Cardiff so regularly without incident on their way (presumably from northern France) to bomb Liverpool that no one bothered to take shelter when the air raid sirens sounded. The exception was the night of 2nd January 1941 when incendiary bombs were dropped on Cardiff. My parents always described this as some sort of error that only affected us personally, but this week's news coverage has revealed to me that it was a raid on Cardiff as a coal exporting port. An incendiary bomb dropped just outside the bedroom window where I was sleeping, passed through a glass verandah and hit the concrete patio below, making a hole, but not exploding/igniting. Much to my mother's horror, my father ran out and kicked the thing down the garden, away from the house. Whether it then ignited, I don't know, but I do remember helping him to fill in the hole with cement a few years later. Funny, I've always regarded this as a family experience, rather than a historical event, but current coverage has sent me to Google with this result:

http://www.hyperaction.org.uk/RoathVillageWeb/War/2jan41.htm

[A Lark Ascending]

That's really interesting, Bill. Love the bit about your dad kicking the incendiary down the garden.

My Dad was a schoolboy-turned-farm labourer in Cornwall during the war. He recalls seeing the planes and all the activity leading up to D-Day (Falmouth was one of the active ports). His elder brothers were involved - one was evacuated from France in 1940 and was never fit enough to fight again; the other served in the navy on various ships - family legend has him there at the Japanese surrender though I'd want that verrified!

My Mum came over from Ireland and joined the WAAF and ended up working on teleprinters in Bletchley Park. She had nothing directly to do with the code-breaking - just a clerical job - but she distinctly recalls being told about the intention of Churchill to announce the end of the war in Europe the day before and then reminded of the Official Secrets Act! She said it was very hard to contain her excitement. I don't think she ever experienced any bombing.

Two other uncles (husbands of my Mum's sisters) served in North Africa/Italy and in France following D-Day respectively.

I'm just grateful I was born at the time I was!

Edited September 19, 2010 by A Lark Ascending

[sidewinder]

Some interesting recollections there - and for sure we all seem to have been born at about the right time.

My mother was in the industrial NE coast during the blitz and she regularly used the air raid shelters at night. Her recollections mentioned lots of noise and frantic activity around the anti-air guns near the shelter, which were protecting the docks.

My late Uncle had apparently was in hospital at the start of the Battle of Britain having his tonsils out and aparently mentioned (and anything he said I would believe 100% without hesitation) that whilst in bed recovering he heard an aircraft 'dog fight' outside the hospital which he subsequently concluded (based on the timing) must have been the first German aircraft shot down in WW2, near Danby Beacon, by Group Capt Peter Townsend of 'Princess Margaret' fame. Incredible !

Story here (under 'Heritage'):

First Dog Fight

Edited September 19, 2010 by sidewinder

[mjazzg]

My Grandmother told the story of when a German bomber (I suspect fighter/bomber) flew low over Caversham Bridge in Reading, strafed the bridge and dropped some unrecognised metal, "it looked just like a tin can, Mark". For some unbeknownst reason she took it upon herself to tidy this up from the street outside her cottage (a bit like Bill's father by the sounds of things), but thankfully as she approached it a ARP warden let her know in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a good idea! Good job really as otherwise I'd not be here typing this.

At the same time she had five WAAF's billeted on her and her house was referred to locally as 'the House of sin'. Sounds like some fun was had (my grandfather was posted away!)

[BillF]

Good job really as otherwise I'd not be here typing this.

What a loss it would have been to the future record industry if these various events had taken a different turn!

[mjazzg]

Good job really as otherwise I'd not be here typing this.

What a loss it would have been to the future record industry if these various events had taken a different turn!