Mobley and Miles

[six string]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but when I listen to the recordings Mobley recorded with Miles, in particular the Blackhawk box, it sounds like Hank is really holding back. When I compare his playing with Max Roach in the 50s and his own albums in the 50s and 60s, he seems almost intimidated by Miles. What was going on? Does anyone have any insight?

[Dave James]

I always thought that Mobley wasn't progressive enough for Miles' evolving tastes. He does sound rather constricted on these recordings, like maybe he wasn't quite sure what Miles wanted of him. Maybe Miles didn't help him out very much, leaving him kind of on his own to see what he brought to the table. This was the immediate post-Coltrane period when Davis went through a number of saxophone players. Guys like Stitt, Rollins, Sam Rivers and Frank Strozier in addition to Hank. For whatever reason, none of them measured up until he found Wayne Shorter.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

although that period is considered primetime for the mobe- i see what youre driving at. its miles hard bop phase and he kind of waters it down, him being miles n all. his solos really never got any balls till the mid 70s--- maybe hank did have to hold back, who knows-- im sure it was a very interesting stage in hanks career, being in that high profile of a group, i wonder what he had to say about it...

[JSngry]

Mobley @ Carnegie Hall is more on it than Mobley @ Blackhawk.

[Dave James]

Mobley was in the midst of the most productive part of his career when the Blackhawk recordings were made in early '61. During this and the prior year, Hank recorded Soul Station, Workout, Another Workout and Roll Call, so you certainly can't say he was off his game. When you look at the stylistic spread of the players Miles auditioned during this period, from the outside work of Sam Rivers to the advanced hard bop of Sonny Rollins to the inside guys like Hank, Stitt and Strozier, he was obviously looking for something that none of these guys had, something that would move him in the direction of the second great quartet. I'm also pretty sure that playing with someone of Davis' stature and personna would intimidate just about anyone. Lord knows, the image he was cultivating at the time was not exactly what I'd call warm and fuzzy. Truth be told, it was probably a combination of factors that led to a series of pink slips, but the bottom line was that Miles knew what he was after and these guys weren't it.

[MartyJazz]

I always thought that Mobley wasn't progressive enough for Miles' evolving tastes. He does sound rather constricted on these recordings, like maybe he wasn't quite sure what Miles wanted of him. Maybe Miles didn't help him out very much, leaving him kind of on his own to see what he brought to the table. This was the immediate post-Coltrane period when Davis went through a number of saxophone players. Guys like Stitt, Rollins, Sam Rivers and Frank Strozier in addition to Hank. For whatever reason, none of them measured up until he found Wayne Shorter.

You're wrong to include Rollins in that group of saxophone players between Trane and Shorter for two reasons. First, Rollins was with Miles on a few occasions but only in the '50s and his various stints as a sidemen, e.g., with Monk, Miles, Roach, etc, were over for good by the time he took a hiatus (1959-61). Second, it's absurd to say that Rollins couldn't "measure up", particularly in the 1960-64 period which spans the amount of time between Trane and Shorter. As much as I enjoy Shorter's stint with Miles, Rollins' entire '60s period is fantastic as evidenced by various recordings, e.g., OUR MAN IN JAZZ, ALFIE, etc.

[papsrus]

Don't recall where I read it, but I do remember seeing somewhere that Tony Williams didn't like Mobley's playing at all, and that maybe that kind of threw a wet blanket over his approach while he was with Miles.

[brownie]

Miles 'autobiography' has this about Mobley:

Playing with Hank just wasn't fun for me; he didn't stimulate my imagination. This was about the time I started playing real short solos and then leaving the bandstand."

[bertrand]

I think you're confusing Mobley with George Coleman. Tony wasn't even on the scene yet when Hank was with Miles.

Bertrand.

[papsrus]

I think you're confusing Mobley with George Coleman. Tony wasn't even on the scene yet when Hank was with Miles.

Bertrand.

Or Philly Joe with Williams?

You're probably right.

[A Lark Ascending]

I've always liked the Blackhawk albums but Mobley never registered as a presence in the way that Coltrane, Coleman (I love the Miles albums with the latter) and Shorter did. In fact the shining light for me on those recordings has always been Wynton Kelly.

As a consequence I never went near Mobley's solo recordings until about ten years back - what a revelation they have turned out to be.

It would have been interesting to hear Mobley with the Williams/Carter/Hancock band. The standard interpretation has Miles in 'transitional' mode at the time of Blackhawk, with the musicians there too locked into the hard bop approach to move further; yet when he did change the rhythm section to something younger and more abstract but hired a relatively 'mainstream' sax player (Coleman) there was still some outstanding music within the existing (if reworked) model. Perhaps something similar could have happened if Mobley had been around longer.

Ah! Counterfactuals!

[JSngry]

People take a record of a club date and think that everybody showed up all....ready to record and shit, like they practiced all day just to get ready & then people listen to that record and think that it's some Great Document that must be recieved as The Way It Was All The time, Every Night.

Nah.

Hank was s junkie, Wynton a juicer, PC,maybe both...you know, you live that life, some nights will be better than others (that's true even if you don't live that life, gut the more variables you throw in....), and what gets recorded gets recorded. Like I said earlier, Hank @ Carnegie hall is clicking pretty damn nicely for my tastes, and surely that wasn't the only night. Hank @ Blackhawk was a little "distracted" the way I hear it, and surely that wasn't the only night, either.

As for Mobley v Coleman....George had the harmonic and rhythmic sub-divisional skills to go with the new rhythm section's moves. Hank didn't, which means nothing other than that Hank didn't. Hank had his own thing, kept it, honed it, pared it down, made it ultra-personal, and...it was not going to be too much of anything with where HerbieRonAndTony Inc were even thinking about going. Tony wanted his Boston Buddy Sam in, so he wasn't happy. Herbie later expressed reservations about George playing licks out of exercise book, which is what both what gave him the skills and ultimately made him dispensable, but as a "stylistic" transitional figure, Coleman was well-equipped to go through the first few doors that were being opened in a way that Hank wasn't, probably didn't want to be, and definitely didn't need to be.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

word. miles would of just drug hank down had he stayed with him- hank whilstles to his own tune

[Dan Gould]

Personally I think whoever first made the observation that Miles needed someone to contrast with his own approach, and Hank didn't do that, got it as right as it needs to be.

Or, maybe the anonymous blog "moron" I've posted in my signature got it right about Hank?

[Matthew]

although that period is considered primetime for the mobe- i see what youre driving at. its miles hard bop phase and he kind of waters it down, him being miles n all. his solos really never got any balls till the mid 70s--- maybe hank did have to hold back, who knows-- im sure it was a very interesting stage in hanks career, being in that high profile of a group, i wonder what he had to say about it...

Chewy, listen to Miles in Europe after Coletrane left, Miles had huge balls in his solos -- talk about power trumpet playing at its best.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Matthew

[Larry Kart]

I agree with Jim's account above and would add that Jimmy Cobb, fine as he is for other players and in himself, is not the right drummer for Mobley, who needed much less glassy, laid-back drummers with whom he could interact and vice versa (Blakey, Philly Joe, Higgins, etc.) BTW, if you're in Miles' band and Miles doesn't like the way you're playing, I can't imagine how crushing to the spirit that might be. The man was a master at messing with other people's minds. And Hank, by all accounts, was a very sensitive guy.

[king ubu]

Jim said it twice already, but let me repeat it, nevertheless: Mobley @ Carnegie Hall is burning it up!

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

although that period is considered primetime for the mobe- i see what youre driving at. its miles hard bop phase and he kind of waters it down, him being miles n all. his solos really never got any balls till the mid 70s--- maybe hank did have to hold back, who knows-- im sure it was a very interesting stage in hanks career, being in that high profile of a group, i wonder what he had to say about it...

Chewy, listen to Miles in Europe after Coletrane left, Miles had huge balls in his solos -- talk about power trumpet playing at its best.

okay, you mean miles w/ sam rivers?

[Big Al]

FWIW, I really dig the way Hank rides the groove on a lot of his solos from the Blackhawk discs. Obviously not what Miles was looking for, but groovy nonetheless!

[jazzbo]

although that period is considered primetime for the mobe- i see what youre driving at. its miles hard bop phase and he kind of waters it down, him being miles n all. his solos really never got any balls till the mid 70s--- maybe hank did have to hold back, who knows-- im sure it was a very interesting stage in hanks career, being in that high profile of a group, i wonder what he had to say about it...

Chewy, listen to Miles in Europe after Coletrane left, Miles had huge balls in his solos -- talk about power trumpet playing at its best.

okay, you mean miles w/ sam rivers?

I think he means Miles with Sonny (Stitt), then George. Don't believe Sam recorded with Miles in Europe. . . .

Edited July 25, 2010 by jazzbo

[mjzee]

This is from Jack Chambers's "Milestones":

Although Mobley lasted in the band for a year, Davis seems to have been less than enthusiastic about his playing the whole time. One night while Mobley soloed on the stand, Davis leaned over to Joe Goldberg and said "Any night Sonny Rollins shows up with his horn, he's got a job."

The book also contains this interesting observation about the Carnegie Hall album, which corroborates Larry Kart:

The LP that resulted has its merits. Chief among them is a driving version of So What, the playing of the quintet clearly invigorated by the setting. Among its delights is the aggressive drumming of Jimmy Cobb, sounding less docile than he had become in recent outings and, in fact, more like Philly Joe Jones, whose style he favored when he first replaced Jones in Davis's bands. So What also includes Hank Mobley's best solo on any recording he made while he was in the Miles Davis Quintet, a confident, inventive solo that holds together from start to finish.

[Matthew]

although that period is considered primetime for the mobe- i see what youre driving at. its miles hard bop phase and he kind of waters it down, him being miles n all. his solos really never got any balls till the mid 70s--- maybe hank did have to hold back, who knows-- im sure it was a very interesting stage in hanks career, being in that high profile of a group, i wonder what he had to say about it...

Chewy, listen to Miles in Europe after Coletrane left, Miles had huge balls in his solos -- talk about power trumpet playing at its best.

okay, you mean miles w/ sam rivers?

I think he means Miles with Sonny (Stitt), then George. Don't believe Sam recorded with Miles in Europe. . . .

Lon is correct. It just seems as if Miles stepped up the power in his solos. I started a topic on this very thing, but no matter how hard I look, I can't find the thread. Maybe it was on the old BNBB, but I don't think so. I'll keep looking because I'm sure everyone is so interested.

PS: By topic I mean how Miles played on that European tour.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Matthew

[king ubu]

Yes, I agree with what Matthew says. The second Europe tour in 1960, with Stitt, sees Miles completely in charge of the music, soloing longer and with much more edge and poise. The main axis is Miles/Kelly, and the later too, digs into the music more thoroughly than with Coltrane.

And about Carnegie Hall: it's been a while that I've played it, but isn't Mobley's solo on "No Blues" (aka "Pfrancinng") his finest outing of the night? Further, Cobb almost goes into that floating groove that night that Tony Williams would later bring to perfection. Sure, he's more powerful than usually, but I don't quite hear that much Philly Joe there.

[six string]

First I'd like to apologize for starting this thread and then going MIA. I didn't mean for that to happen but work got in the way. Second, thanks for all the well thought out replies/theories. A lot of them make sense to me. I'm a big fan of Hank Mobley so I certainly didn't want to sound like I was dissing him or the recordings although I don't count the Blackhawk dates as essential in the Miles discography. I did buy the Mosaic box so I've heard the whole banana and that's why I came up with this question.

Hank's sensitivity is a good point. The fact that his style didn't completely mesh with Miles and where he was going is also accurate imo. JSangry also made some good points about not using the Blackhawk performance alone as a yardstick to measure Mobley's contribution, especially when you add in the effect of substance abuse on a musician's performance. I had not thought about the effect of Jimmy Cob's playing on Mobley. I'll need to go back and listen to that music again with that focus.

I think that beinig a fan of Mobley's playing made me feel a little sad or disappointed that he didn't sound on top of his game at The Blackhawk but as J said, people play differently from night to night and when you toss in non musical influences like drugs/alcohol, Miles' attitude or mood and other things we probably will never know that shaped that night's music.

It's been a while since I've played the Carnegie Hall album so I need to pull it out and listen to Hank on those cuts.

In a recent article in Downbeat a writer talked about jazz fans being puzzle solvers. I had never thought about that before but I have to agree and this is one of those examples of that very thing. So thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It gave me some extra insight to this puzzle and it's going to make me pull out an album I haven't heard in quite a while which is almost always a good thing.

[Big Al]

All this talk about the live dates and not one mention of SOMEDAY MY PRINCE WILL COME? AFAIC, that's the real gem of Mobley's tenure with Miles. Yes, Trane steals the show on the tracks on which he appears. No matter: Hank more than holds his own among the big names, and I put this album on a par with Hank's Blue Note albums from the same era.